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the hands off rallies across the nation push back against the Trump administration, which early on has been characterized by layoffs, possible funding freezes and the early volleys of a trade war.

Lawmakers, including Washington Senator Maria Cantwell, try to reassert their authority over tariffs and trade.

Meanwhile, despite what can be reasonably argued as a clunky implementation, the basic math problem, namely the country's $36 trillion national debt, is something politicians in both parties were eventually going to have to contend with, and that time may have come.

So that's part of the discussion tonight with the 10th District Congresswoman Marilyn Strickland and second District Congressman Rick Larsen.

That's next on northwest.

Now.

Music Everybody would like the easy way out of running up $36 trillion on the nation's credit card.

But as taxpayers in Washington state are about to find out when expenditures exceed revenues, getting out of the jam is always painful.

The fight is over how that pain is distributed.

So putting all the social issues aside, both MAGA Republicans and the Democratic resistance are facing the same ugly reality that the math isn't math, and that letting the good times roll puts the country on a collision course with even more pain in the future.

Tax breaks and trickle down really hasn't worked.

Stimulative giveaways just cause inflation and discourage participation in the labor force.

So again, finding a path toward solvency is going to become an increasingly important part of any Congress person's job.

And how you view the ultimate solution is why elections matter in ways that they maybe haven't before.

Meanwhile, though, the country is in chaos with every government department, every institution, and every norm thrown into turmoil to facilitate what GOP voters wanted.

Rapid change and a disabled opposition.

A quick note here.

In case you didn't know it, there are no congressional Republicans in our viewing area, and those out of our viewing area didn't respond to our inquiries.

So let's start with the 10th District representative, Marilyn Strickland.

you think there's any method to Donald Trump and the Republicans madness when it comes to finally maybe addressing the national debt and handing out some pain?

And do you just assume let them do it?

So first of all, it's really nice to be here with you again, Tom, and with the Kbtx family.

I mean, I was I think about the whole conversation with the Trump administration and the Republican Party and the debt.

I'll tell you a few high level things that I've observed in the very short period of time.

So, number one, they are making these giant, inhumane cuts to very important essential services in the name of addressing national debt.

But what's really happening is that the plan is to give away tax breaks to the super ultra wealthy.

And in fact, it's actually going to add $7 billion of debt.

And so I understand the desire to deal with debt.

And I would advise a bipartisan commission to take a very thoughtful strategic look.

Let's use a scalpel and not a sledgehammer and a chainsaw to figure this out.

But you know, this.

I mean, what you've seen is just this chaotic uncertainty and it's uncertainty for people trying to pay their bills.

You know, we've talked about firings at the Veterans Administration.

What's happening with Social Security Administration and the wait times people have to endure.

And just as uncertainty about what's happening, I spoke with the CEO of a local retailer yesterday, and he said that this chaos with tariffs is not good for business.

And so I think people are looking for certainty.

I believe that people would like to see some bipartisan support, but let's do it methodically and strategically and not just randomly make these cuts and say it's good for the American people when it's not.

Aren't the tariffs supposed to pay for the tax cuts and those things?

That's what you heard.

And these across the board tariffs went into place.

And you saw the market respond very very negatively.

And then yesterday the president says oh wait wait wait wait wait.

We're going to do a pause on the tariffs.

So the market came roaring back a bit.

But you can't have this helter skelter uncertain business climate and say this is good public policy.

And so again.

And I want to point something out Tom.

The president of the United States does not have the authority to impose taxes or tariffs.

That is a congressional action.

So in addition to the uncertainty and chaos, this is simply unconstitutional and illegal.

What he's doing.

You've made the transition a couple of times into a section I have here called The Trouble with chaos.

Right.

And, and and what are constituents tell you telling you specifically you alluded to it.

But when it comes to trying to plan personal finances, plan operating a small business to bring a product in or to hold inventory or, importing, exporting those things, is that are there boots on the ground implications of this in CV ten?

Oh, of course there are.

I mean, there are boots on the ground implications in the 10th Congressional District and everyone across the state of Washington and I want to remind folks of something, Washington state is the most trade dependent state in the entire nation.

So we have growers in eastern Washington growing wheat, apples, cherries.

And they depend on international markets in Asia because they export a lot to them, because they love our products.

And so when you're when you're imposing these random tariffs, it turns into this trade war and these retaliatory trade, you know this retaliatory tariffs.

And so what does that mean.

It means that we pay more here in the United States.

Random tariffs are not good for the American people because they will simply drive up the cost of what we pay for goods.

And if you go around the house and look at where things are made that you wear, that you buy that you use, a lot of them are imports.

And so I don't think there's anything wrong with using tariffs in a very thoughtful, intentional and strategic way to create more jobs at home and to make it more fair.

But you can't just randomly slap on a tariff rate and think it's not going to have an effect on everyday people at home.

What we pay, how it affects the supply chain for business and how it affects small business.

We all like cheap stuff.

I worked a lot in the Midwest and Indiana and Kentucky places.

I've been to those towns where the factory went away.

We hollowed out the middle class, the trade, the deal we made was cheap stuff for people with educations and who prepare files for work like me.

Right?

I'm against hollowing out the middle class.

Does Donald Trump have a point that we'll never make ten issues here because we just don't have the labor force, and that's not going to happen.

But is reshoring is bringing some of this back to America, where we don't have to hope that China will give us mass someday.

Is that valid?

Oh, absolutely.

And we learned this during the pandemic, Tom.

Remember, there were basic supplies we needed, like masks, and we had to actually import them.

So it totally makes sense to do our best to onshore the things that we want and need.

We should have more American manufacturing.

And to your point about some of these Midwest states, I got hollowed out because some of these trade deals.

But I also want to point out the fact that we as U.S. citizens and consumers have an insatiable appetite for some of the products that we're talking about here and where they come from.

So I think there's a way to bring offshoring back to the United States.

But understand that applying tariffs across the board with no thought or care, is not going to make these jobs magically appear in these factories automatically appear.

That is a decades long process to buy property, to have certainty, to stand it up.

You have to have the workers to work in the factories.

And so I don't think anyone disagrees, Tom, with the idea of let's bring some jobs back to the United States, but let's do it with thought and care and not hurt the American people in the process.

One of the things I want to talk to you about, too, is governance from your perspective.

Olympia Indivisible held an event at your office, not protesting against you.

I want to make that clear, but calling for you to, quote, do something.

Yeah.

What can you possibly tell them?

Is there any way they really kind of constructively resist as a D and in our house?

Can you help somehow try to shape policy and get in there and do anything?

Or is it.

Sorry, folks.

Elections have consequences.

Good luck with that.

So, you know, when you hear from people who say, do something.

I think that there was a sincere, earnest desire to take action.

And to your point about the limitation that we have as members of Congress.

And I say, first and foremost, this is a math problem.

You need 218 votes to pass a bill out of Congress, out of the House, where there are 215 Democrats, so that math doesn't change.

So in order for us to pass something, we would have to have the majority Republicans bring forth a bill, and then we'd have to get three Republicans to one to vote for something that all Democrats would vote for.

So first of all, it's a math problem.

But here's what I tell folks.

I said, what we can do is a few things we need to show up and use our voices.

Because a lot of times in places like D.C., you're in this bubble, right?

You're in this bubble of people who know policy.

You're in a media bubble, and we have to know how these things are affecting everyday people.

The other thing I also say to is that, you know, I do everything I can to work in a bipartisan way without compromising my values.

But we have to hold the Republicans accountable.

They are allowing Donald Trump to make all these illegal actions.

They're doing nothing.

They're staying silent and they're complicit.

So I appreciate having people say to me, do something.

But what I say back is if you want to do something productive, productive, tell the story of how this is hurting people and hold the Republicans accountable, even if you don't vote for them because they still make decisions.

I know you don't have a list in front of you, and it tends to change.

It's in flux, right?

But off the top of your head, what what do we know or think we know?

We lose in this area when it comes to Doge reductions, there's a lot of money for green infrastructure coming out of the inflation and, Inflation Reduction Act.

Well, I still which I still maintain a slightly ironically named, library money.

That was a story that just came out right.

What what are you aware of that that is at risk again, kind of in our local situation.

So I will tell you honestly, it's always hard to tell day to day.

But if I think about some of the initial cuts that were made, for example, they made cups, they made cuts to the federal aviation industry.

Right.

And then they said, oh, wait, we want these employees to come back.

They made some cuts to Veterans Administration employees who are helping our veterans every single day.

And they said, oh, wait, we want you to come back.

And so I would say the everyday impact of this time is that they're making cuts.

They're getting a lot of negative publicity, and people are complaining and then they say, oh, well, wait, wait, wait.

We don't want to do that.

And what's happening is that you're losing people with institutional knowledge who understand how these agencies work.

How does that help hurt you as an everyday person?

The wait times that Social Security are going to be a lot longer than they had been, because they're decimating the agencies and closing regional offices, getting care at the Veterans Administration is going to get harder, because if you want to improve customer service, you don't take away the people who are actually doing the work.

And so I did some of the other things that are happening too, is Department of Education cuts, right.

They were cutting the Department of Education in real time.

That's going to mean that kids who get title one funds in schools that are underserved, services for special ed students, special services in community and technical education.

Those funds are all at risk.

And so these agencies that they are attacking are not going to help us reduce the debt because they're doing harm to the American people.

So those are just some specific examples I have.

And I circle back to this idea of a commission on the national debt.

And with 435 plus 100 people on that commission, we can't cut anything.

It's all essential.

It's all vital.

We know that's not true.

Yeah, but man, we we got to we got to balance these two ideas somehow.

Yeah.

You know, and I would also say too, I mean, you know, when we think about national debt, it's not just taking a chainsaw to every government program.

The other question is, you know, where are their opportunities to generate revenue and not just talking about taxes, right.

Is investing in communities and infrastructure and going to be better for commerce?

That will be more tax revenue.

So be thoughtful, be strategic and think about both the expense side, but also think about the revenue side as well.

They're not they're not mutually exclusive.

They can work together.

So the commission could come out and maybe talk about taxes and have some political cover.

Yeah.

Something to think about.

Yeah.

And also to I'll talk about Social Security.

For example, when Social Security started, there were 16 employees contributing into the system for every one beneficiary getting yeah, benefits.

That ratio is so different now I think it might be 4 to 1.

And so we have to look at Social Security in one place.

I think it's a good place to look like, you know what is the cap as far as where you contribute into Social Security.

We can raise the cap.

We can eliminate it altogether.

But that's one idea that's out there about how we keep Social Security and ensure that everyone's benefits are going to be there because they paid into it and they've earned these benefits.

Yeah, there's a couple of levers there that can be pushed and pulled dramatically.

That can certainly have major implications down the road on that program.

Marilyn, thanks so much for coming to northwest now.

I appreciate your time today.

Great.

Nice to see you again.

To you, YouTube.

And now let's move north into the second district.

And Congressman Rick Larsen, just as Boeing is, stop beating up its suppliers and getting in line and and working in conjunction with labor and getting back to an engineering and safety focus.

Wow, here comes an international trade war and China really taking a step back from products that are crucial to Congressional District two, in Washington state.

Talk a little bit about what you're hearing, what's going on, and what do you think some of the long term impacts of this have the possibility of being?

Well, I'm I'm fortunate enough to be the congressman who represents more Boeing employees and retirees than any other member of Congress in the United States.

And and they do great work to build great airplanes.

They've been through a really tough time.

The company's been through a tough time as well.

And the main focus for Boeing largely right now is on this thing called a safety and quality plan.

That is basically the work that they need to do to increase their production rates, again, to hire more people and so on.

So this, ongoing trade war, that, the president has brought upon the United States isn't isn't helping the US-China trade relationship is already in pretty tough shape.

China is clearly believes the government.

China believes it strong enough to withstand a trade war with the United States and is being very targeted.

And, you know, in attacking and creating collateral damage, on major U.S. products, including, Boeing airplanes.

And so, you know, the folks at Boeing, their long term plan is really about building, rebuilding trust, building quality, safe airplanes.

Taking that route and, and calculating, where the China market sits in this.

Right now, it hasn't been it hasn't been a great market for Boeing or Airbus, frankly, for quite some time.

China hasn't.

So this this is collateral damage that, you know, may have a big impact, short term and it may have a bigger impact.

Long term or not.

It's it's really kind of up in the air, but it does show that China feels it strong enough to push back against the United States and its largest, exporter by, by revenue.

And that's, and that's Boeing doesn't Boeing airplanes and the women and men who make them.

I understand the principle of trying to bring manufacturing back to the United States.

I worked for years out in the Midwest.

I've been to many towns with the empty factory and no more textiles, no more auto parts, no more, you name it, furniture.

And, you know, we made a deal with the devil back in the 70s and 80s to to get cheap stuff and in exchange for selling out American labor.

So I understand the principle of it is this being carried out strategically, do you think or do you think it's a mess?

And we're going to see what happens?

I think the, the president's, trade war is a mess.

It's creating chaos.

And there's really no such strategy to it.

When he first announced, the increase in tariffs using these, national emergency powers, it was so chaotic, we were putting tariffs on an uninhabited island, and I, a couple of islands and have it only by penguins.

It was like, that's just an example of sort of the spaghetti on the wall approach that the president has taken.

This is the flip side of this is that, manufacturing jobs, the number of manufacturing jobs in the U.S. has increased over time.

We have increased manufacturing jobs.

We are investing in our transportation system with passage of the bipartisan infrastructure law.

There's a reason why the unemployment rate has been hovering as low as for a 3.9% over the last couple of years, because women and men are going to work every day, in construction, building and next generation infrastructure.

There are things we're doing with the Chips and Science Act that are investing in the United States.

You know, I would argue this president kind of left things alone.

And, it wouldn't be chaotic.

Things would be going pretty well and people wouldn't be panicking about their 401 cases or about the price of gas or the price of eggs.

But that's where we are right now.

Yeah.

And the emphasis there being, you know, let's face it, we're never going to make, ping pong balls or tennis shoes in this country again.

But but high value things, do have a continuing role.

And I think the president's idea there is listen, I'm going to give manufacturers a high price, as opposed to government money to major differences in philosophy there, I get that.

But you mentioned the word chaos and I that's a good segue into another question I have for you.

What are what are constituents telling you about chaos?

You know, here at Ktrk in public television, we're having difficulty planning, not knowing what's going to happen with the Corporation for Public Broadcasting.

And the same thing is happening with personal finance and families, small business imports, exports.

What does that policy chaos mean on the ground in a for the non Boeings in district two.

Yeah absolutely I know and I I'm a big fan of public television.

I watch my masterpiece mysteries I think the investment that's very and it's a very tiny investment the government makes in a corporation for public broadcasting support, public television.

It's also a very tiny investment the federal government makes in our local libraries.

And yet now libraries are being hit because of a cut to a program.

That is the way it's going to play out, is in is, exacerbating the the rural digital divide.

Libraries.

Rural libraries use this federal money in order to bring free Wi-Fi to rural areas, for their customers, for the taxpayers, look for kids, for students without that money, WiFi in rural areas is going to be degraded.

And, it means less access to educational materials for local kids.

People are concerned about Medicaid cuts.

Medicaid cuts are coming because of the chaos in the budget in Whatcom County, as, for instance, in 2023, 50%, zero 50% of the kids born in Whatcom County in 2023 were born into families that use Medicaid as a primary health care in Skagit County at 60%.

So what I tell people like Medicaid is not health care for the poor.

You you don't have to play more than two degrees of Kevin Bacon to find someone who uses health Medicaid as their primary health care, or a friend of a friend.

It's going to hit people you know in your neighborhood when these cuts happen.

And finally, I just note that the president, this president came in, he said he's going to cut gas prices on day one.

In Everett, where I live, the gas prices are up $0.65 since inauguration right now.

Is that the president's fault?

I don't know if it is the president's fault or not.

He promised to come down and he's breaking the promise.

All this focus on the chaos is it means the president is not focused on doing the very thing he got elected to do, and that was address cost and inflation for average Americans.

He's not doing that a lot of a lot of states, a lot of state costs in the state of Washington going into the price of gas, the cost of oil is going down.

And, you know, answers for things like, like, you know, putting trade barriers on small islands is to avoid trans shipment problems.

I mean, there's, you know, I, I'm I hear you, Rick.

And but but but but but to argue that this is some sort of grander strategy if there's no one sees it.

Yeah, yeah.

No.

Is it, in fact, the, the president and his team themselves constantly said, hey, you're going to have to live with little pain, you know?

Hey, you, we might have a recession.

I've served with, four presidents, and I can, you know, think back and go all the way back to Clinton, to Bush.

1.0 to to Reagan, even to Carter.

And.

No, no president they can recall ever said, I want you all to be ready for a recession.

I want you all to be ready for economic pain.

No president, no president or Congress has also stepped in to deal with what is now a $36 trillion national debt.

Is this the first volley in that to some degree, and is the is the Democratic Party in some ways letting the better off letting the Republicans at least make the the initial, foray into handing out that pain.

Well, first off, maybe a point that's, a distinction without a difference, but it's not true what you just said.

The Clinton administration specifically moved on, trying to decrease that, decrease the debt by passing, budgets with surpluses.

That that did happen.

There were some years in there.

Yeah, yeah.

So the number the numbers are clear about that, but that me but I also when I got in in 2000 and Bush 43 came in, they used these projections on budget surplus, was to put forward a tax cut that blue blew the deficits of open again, Democrats haven't been much better.

But it doesn't mean we need to, make things worse.

And the budget proposal right now that, Congress is, looking at, working towards that, the Republicans put forward would add, you know, anywhere from $1.5 trillion to $3 trillion to the national debt.

Meanwhile, at the same time, doing a tax cut up to about four and a half, maybe $5 trillion, and based on what they did in 2017, this tax cut will also fall largely provide, tax cuts largely to the richest Americans.

And largest corporations.

That's not hyperbole.

That's what happened in 2017 with it last time they did a tax cut.

And there's no indication that's going to change.

So it doesn't help dealing with the national debt.

What's going what's what's going on.

We need we do need at the federal level, a more, much more progressive tax code than, we have now.

And, and more progressive than the one we're going to get in order to provide some stability in this, without getting into we could do you could do international economics all day with this, debt to GDP ratio.

That is a really much better indicator than the absolute number, associated with the debt, the resist movement, keeps calling on congressional Democrats to do something.

And my first question is, what the heck can you really do?

Second of all, again, I can kind of argue it both ways that, you know, is there some value in trying to cross the aisle to at least to somewhat shape policies you generally disagree with, or is the answer?

No.

Elections have consequences, and, MAGA can just kind of reap the whirlwind here.

Well, elections have consequences, does not.

Which is true does not mean MAGA gets to reap the whirlwind.

There's a lot there's a lot of pain the Republican majority is feeling right now because they're finding out what it means to try to pass a Maga budget.

If for for short term.

To give you a shorthand description of it, including these cuts to to Medicaid, $880 billion over the next ten years, is a potential cut to the Medicaid program, which is likely going to mean, a lot of hurt for a lot of folks.

But we need to focus on pushing back against Trump administrations, Democrats, and we're doing that.

Rick Larsen, thanks so much for coming to northwest.

Now, a lot of big topics out there, a lot, a lot going on.

Thanks.

Some.

one of the most difficult things about solving the big problem right now is the inability to plan.

The bottom line.

My view is that if nothing else, no matter how the country's biggest problem is solved, and it's all about economics.

Predictability is the most important element.

Almost no matter who wins an election or how we get there.

If there's predictability in the incentives and disincentives are rolled out in clear policy.

American ingenuity know how and mobility can adapt and solve any problem.

And that goes for individual small companies.

Big multinationals are cultural and social institutions and government.

Without predictability and some semblance of policy alignment, uncertainty and chaos reign.

And that, for now, is the most important bipartisan critique of the Trump administration I can think of.

My thanks to Representative Strickland and Larsen for their time here on northwest.

Now, I hope this program got you thinking and talking.

You can find this program on the web at kbtc-dot-org.

Stream it through the PBS app or listen on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.

That's going to do it for this edition of northwest.

Now, until next time, I'm Tom Layson.

Thanks for watching.

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