>> NEXT, BUILD, BABY, BUILD, AS THEY SAY.

THAT IS THE WHITE HOUSE'S SILICON VALLEY SLOGAN, URGING COMPANIES TO INVEST IN ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE INFRASTRUCTURE INSIDE THE UNITED STATES.

AND THE CAMPAIGN HAS SO FAR BEEN VERY SUCCESSFUL, WITH TENS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS FUNNELED INTO DATA CENTERS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

BUT WHILE THESE INVESTMENTS MAY APIECE PRESIDENT TRUMP, THEY ARE CAUSING MAJOR ISSUES FOR SURROUNDING COMMUNITIES AS WELL AS FOR THE ENVIRONMENT.

HANNAH BECKLER, INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER AT "BUSINESS INSIDER" JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS HER FINDINGS.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

HANNAH BECKLER, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU HAD A RECENT INVESTIGATION IN "BUSINESS INSIDER" TITLED "EXPOSING THE DARK SIDE OF AMERICA'S DATA CENTER EXPLOSION. "

WHAT SURPRISED YOU ABOUT THIS INVESTIGATION?

>> SURE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

I THINK WE HAVE ALL OF THESE BIG TECH COMPANIES WHO ARE RACING TO BUILD OUT INTO THE FUTURE FOCUSED ON AI.

BUT THE IMPACTS THAT ARE HAPPENING ON OUR COMMUNITIES, OUR WATER, OUR ELECTRICITY GRIDS ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

SO WHAT WE REALLY WANTED TO INVESTIGATE IS WHAT'S HAPPENING ON THE GROUND, WHAT'S GOING ON, AND HOW RESOURCE INTENSIVE IS THIS BUILD- OUT.

>> YOU KNOW, FOR OUR AUDIENCE, UNLESS THEY'RE WATCHING THIS CONVERSATION LIVE OVER THE AIR SO TO SPEAK, EVEN THE YOUTUBE ARCHIVE OF THIS IS PART OF WHAT IS STORED IN THE DATA CENTER, RIGHT?

GIVE US AN UNDERSTANDING, I GUESS, OF WHAT THESE ARE AND WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT THESE VERSION ALL OF THE AI-FOCUSED DATA CENTERS THAT ARE COMING IN THE FUTURE VERSUS THE ONES WE'RE FAMILIAR WITH TODAY.

>> SO THE FIRST THING TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT A LOT OF THE DATA CENTERS THERE USED FOR THINGS LIKE SOCIAL MEDIA, OUR EMAILS, OUR APPLICATIONS THAT WE'RE USING EVERY DAY.

SO ALL OF THAT DOESN'T REALLY EXIST IN A CLOUD.

IT EXISTS IN DATA CENTERS WHICH ARE THESE BIG WAREHOUSES FULL OF SERVERS THAT ARE SORT OF PROCESSING ALL OF THAT INFORMATION, ALL THAT DATA ALL THE TIME.

WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT DATA CENTERS THAT ARE BUILT TO PROCESS AI IS THEY ARE EVEN MORE POWER INTENSIVE.

SO THEY REQUIRE SERVERS THAT ARE JUST MANY MANIFOLD HIGHER INTENSIVE THAN WHAT WE'RE SEEING.

SO WE'RE SEEING A HUGE ESCALATION IN HOW MUCH ELECTRICITY THESE DATA CENTERS ARE USING.

>> OKAY.

AND WHERE DOES THAT ELECTRICITY USUALLY COME FROM?

IF SOMEBODY PUTS ONE OF THESE DATA CENTER WAREHOUSES INTO A COMMUNITY, WHAT ARE THEY PLUGGING INTO GET THAT POWER?

>> THEY'RE PLUGGING RIGHT INTO THE ELECTRICITY GRID, JUST THE SAME AS OUR HOUSES AND SMALL BUSINESSES, THAT SORT OF THING.

BUT I THINK WHAT WE'RE REALLY SEEING IS THAT IN ORDER TO HANDLE THE SORT OF EXTREME POWER LOAD, THEY'RE OFTEN NEEDING TO BUILD SPECIALIZED TRANSMISSION LINES, LARGE SCALE INFRASTRUCTURE TO SUPPORT THAT KIND OF POWER.

AND WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS UTILITIES SORT OF DEMOCRATIZING THOSE EXPENSES ACROSS ALL THE RATE PAYERS.

IT'S NOT JUST THE DATA CENTER, IT'S OUR HOUSES AND OUR SMALL BUSINESSES WHO ARE PAYING A LITTLE BIT MORE TO BE ABLE TO SUPPORT THAT KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE.

>> OKAY.

AND IF EVERYBODY IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD, SO TO SPEAK, IS PAYING FOR THE NEW TRANSMISSION LINE TO KEEP THAT DATA CENTER ALIVE AND OUR BILLS GO UP, I'M ASSUMING SOME OF THESE COMMUNITIES ARE PUSHING BACK?

>> THEY ARE.

WE'RE STARTING TO SEE SOME PUSH BACK.

GEORGIA AND VIRGINIA IN PARTICULAR.

VIRGINIA A FILING FROM DOMINION, WHICH IS THE LARGEST UTILITY COMPANY IN VIRGINIA SORT OF ESTIMATED THAT VIRGINIA RATE PAYERS COULD BE PAYING AS MUCH AS 50% MORE ON THEIR ELECTRICITY BILL IN ORDER TO SUPPORT OF SUPPORT BROAD EXPANSION OF THE ELECTRICITY GRID IN VIRGINIA.

WE'RE STARTING TO SEE PUSHBACK.

WE'RE STARTING TO SEE RESIDENTS SAY WHAT'S GOING ON HERE, WHAT DOES THIS LOOK LIKE, AND REGULATORS ARE STARTING TO TAKE NOTICE AS WELL.

>> IN RESPONSE TO YOUR INVESTIGATION, AMAZON, MICROSOFT, AND GOOGLE TOLD "BUSINESS INSIDER" THAT THEY WERE COMMITTED TO PAYING THEIR FULL SHARE FOR UPGRADES TO GRID INFRASTRUCTURE LIKE HIGH VOLTAGE POWER LINES.

THAT THE CASE FOR THE 1200 DATA CENTERS THAT ARE OUT THERE?

BECAUSE THESE ARE JUST A COUPLE OF THE COMPANIES.

ARE THERE COMPANIES AND MUNICIPALITIES WITH ALL KINDS OF DIFFERENT POLICIES AND EXPECTATIONS?

>> I THINK THOSE COMPANIES REALLY DOMINATE ELECTRICITY USE NATIONWIDE.

SO IT'S MEANINGFUL THAT THEY ARE AT LEAST SAYING THAT THEY ARE COMMITTED TO PAYING THEIR FULL FAIR SHARE.

THE PROBLEM IS WHEN WE LOOK AT THE ACTUAL REGULATORY FILINGS, WE'RE STILL SEEING A NUMBER OF DATA CENTERS.

FOR EXAMPLE, THERE WAS ONE IN GEORGIA RECENTLY, QTS FACILITY.

AND THEY'RE SUBMITTING REGULATORY FILINGS ASKING FOR A $300 MILLION TRANSMISSION LINE THAT'S BEING BUILT OUT THERE.

AND THAT COST WILL BE DISPLACED AGAINST ALL THE RATE PAYERS IN THAT AREA.

SO IT CAN BE REALLY DIFFICULT TO MEASURE THESE THINGS AND EXACTLY HOW MUCH DATA CENTERS ARE ACTUALLY PAYING FOR THE MASSIVE INFRASTRUCTURE BUILD- OUT THAT IS REQUIRED TO SUPPORT THEIR ELECTRICITY LOAD.

>> OKAY.

GIVE US AN IDEA OF HOW WIDESPREAD THIS IS.

I KNOW IN YOUR STORY, YOU GUYS HAD A MAP, AND THERE WERE A LOT OF LITTLE DOTS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

>> SO I THINK WHAT IS REALLY STRIKING, AROUND 2010 WE WERE SEEING ABOUT 311 DATA CENTERS.

THAT WAS NATIONWIDE.

BY THE END OF LAST YEAR, THAT NUMBER HAD NEARLY QUADRUPLED TO 1,240 DATA CENTERS.

IT'S A MASSIVE EXPANSION IN PRETTY SHORT AMOUNTS OF TIME.

AND THEY'RE MOSTLY CONCENTRATED IN VIRGINIA.

BUT WE'RE STARTING TO SEE SOME BUT WE'RE STARTING TO SEE SOME OTHER HOT SPOTS.

IN MARICOPA COUNTY, FOR EXAMPLE, IN ARIZONA, OR IN THE CENTRAL OHIO AREA.

>> OKAY.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT ARIZONA, ONE OF THE THINGS THAT AUTOMATICALLY AN ALARM BELL GOES OFF FOR ME IS KIND OF THE WATER TABLE THERE.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS YOU POINT OUT IT'S NOT JUST ELECTRICITY THAT THESE DATA CENTERS USE, BUT THEY ALSO USE WATER.

HOW SO?

>> SO IN ORDER TO KEEP YOUR SERVERS RUNNING, YOU HAVE TO KEEP THEM COOL.

THEY'RE RUNNING 24/7, SO THEY GET REALLY, REALLY HOT.

THEY GENERATE A LOT OF HEAT.

YOU NEED SOMETHING TAKING AWAY THAT EXCESS HEAT.

A COMMON SYSTEM IS TO USE FRESH DRINKING WATER TO RUN IT THROUGH THE DATA CENTER AND COOL OFF THE SERVERS.

SO SOME OF THE VERY, VERY LARGEST FACILITIES THAT ARE BEING BUILT IN PLACES LIKE ARIZONA, WE'RE ALREADY SEEING EXTREME WATER STRESS AND A LOT OF DROUGHT.

AND THEY'RE COMPETING DIRECTLY WITH RESIDENTS THERE BECAUSE THEY'RE USING FRESH DRINKING WATER TO BE ABLE TO COOL THOSE SERVERS.

>> WHAT'S THE INCENTIVE THAT TOWNS AND MUNICIPALITIES AROUND THE COUNTRY HAVE TO TRY TO LURE THE DATA CENTERS IN?

I'M ASSUMING THERE IS A BENEFIT, THAT THEY'RE SAYING OKAY, WE WANT THIS DATA CENTER IN OUR AREA.

>> SO WHAT WE FOUND IS A COUPLE --THREE DOZEN STATES HAVE STATE LEVEL SORT OF INCENTIVES WHERE THEY'RE GIVING SORT OF 100% SALES AND TAX ABATEMENTS TO DATA CENTERS WHICH IS REALLY SIGNIFICANT WHEN YOU'RE THINKING ABOUT THE AMOUNT OF INVESTMENT THAT IS GOING INTO BUILDING THESE CENTERS.

AND THEN ON TOP OF, THAT MUNICIPALITIES OR COUNTIES ARE ALSO OFFERING SIGNIFICANT INCENTIVES FOR DATA CENTERS.

SO THEY'RE SAYING YOU CAN GET 100% PROPERTY TAX ABATEMENTS, FOR EXAMPLE, FOR 15 YEARS, WHICH IS REALLY STRIKING.

WHAT DATA CENTERS ARE SAYING, AND THEIR OPERATORS ARE SAYING THIS IS AN OPPORTUNITY FOR THESE AREAS TO SORT OF TRANSFORM THEIR ECONOMIES INTO HIGH-TECH ECONOMIES WHERE THERE IS LOTS OF HIGH-PAYING JOBS.

THE REALITY WE FOUND IS 80% OF DATA CENTER JOBS ARE IN THEIR CONSTRUCTION.

AND ONCE THEY'RE ACTUALLY FULLY BUILT, YOU'RE ONLY SEEING MAYBE AS FEW AS 25 FULL-TIME PERMANENT JOBS AT EACH FACILITY.

SO THEY DON'T REALLY EMPLOY THAT MANY WORKERS.

>> YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOKED AT THIS, YOU HAD TO FIGURE OUT HOW MUCH ELECTRICITY THESE DATA CENTERS WERE GOING TO BE USING.

HOW DID YOU DO THAT?

>> COMPLICATED.

SO MANY OF THESE OPERATORS, THEY DON'T REALLY WANT TO DISCLOSE HOW MUCH POWER THEIR FLEET OF DATA CENTERS IS USING AT ANY ONE TIME.

SO WE ACTUALLY FOLLOWED OUR OWN METHODOLOGY, WHICH WE DEVELOPED IN VERY CLOSE CONSULTATION WITH MANY ACADEMICS, ENGINEERS, AND INDUSTRY INSIDERS.

SO WE USED THE AIR PERMITS.

SO THESE ARE REGULATORY PERMITS THAT ARE ISSUED TO THE BACKUP GENERATORS EACH CENTER HAS.

DATA CENTERS CAN NEVER BE WITHOUT POWER.

THEY'RE ALWAYS BUILT WITH THE BACKUP DIESEL GENERATORS, AND THOSE ARE A POINT OF POLLUTION.

SO THEY'RE REGULATED BY STATES OF ENVIRONMENT.

SO WE WENT AND REQUESTED FROM ALL 50 STATES AND D. C. FOR THOSE PERMITS ISSUED TO DATA CENTER BACKUP GENERATORS.

SO IT'S A BIT OF A COUPLE- STEP PROCESS HERE.

BUT THAT'S HOW WE WERE ABLE TO EXTRAPOLATE OUR ESTIMATE ELECTRICITY USE IS WE ADDED UP THE AMOUNT OF POWER THOSE GENERATORS ARE ABLE TO PRODUCE.

WE APPLIED SORT OF A REDUNDANCY ESTIMATE.

SO YOU ALWAYS BUILD MORE GENERATORS THAN YOU ACTUALLY USE, AND THEN ESTIMATED THE AMOUNT OF WHAT'S CALLED CAPACITY, WHICH IS HOW MUCH, YOU KNOW, POWER OR HOW MUCH USE ARE THOSE SERVERS RUNNING AT ANY ONE TIME.

SOMEWHAT COMPLICATED, BUT WE'RE ABLE TO ESTIMATE A RANGE OF WHAT THESE DATA CENTER --WE ESTIMATE THEIR ELECTRICITY USE IS.

>> AND PUT THAT IN PERSPECTIVE FOR US.

HOW MUCH POWER ARE DATA CENTERS GOING TO BE DRAWING IN THE UNITED STATES IF ALL OF THESE COME ON LINE?

>> SO BY THE END OF 2024, IF ALL OF THOSE PERMITTED DATA CENTERS ARE BUILT AND CONSTRUCTED AND COME ONLINE, WE'RE ESTIMATING THAT THEIR POWER USE IN TOTAL COULD BE AS MUCH AS OHIO, THE ENTIRE STATE OF OHIO USED IN 2023 ON THE LOW END.

AND ON THE HIGH END, IT COULD BE AS MUCH AS FLORIDA USED IN 2023.

SO IT'S A REALLY MASSIVE AMOUNTS OF POWER.

A FEDERAL ESTIMATE ACTUALLY PUTS THAT FAR HIGHER.

SO BY 2028, THEY ESTIMATE THAT DATA CENTERS COULD BE USING AS MUCH AS 600 TERRA WATT HOURS OF ELECTRICITY EACH YEAR, WHICH IS 12% OF WHAT THE U. S. USES EACH YEAR.

SO IT WOULD BE A SIGNIFICANT AMOUNT OF POWER.

>> THERE WAS A STUDY THAT WAS ESTIMATING THAT AI- DRIVEN DATA CENTERS COULD CONSUME 1.

7 TRILLION GALLONS OF WATER EVERY YEAR BY 2027 AROUND THE WORLD.

IN OREGON, THERE WAS A LOCAL NEWSPAPER THAT FOUND THAT THE GOOGLE DATA CENTERS IN THE DALLES HAD USED 355 MILLION GALLONS.

THEY PUT IT IN THE CONTEXT OF ROUGHLY 500 OLYMPIC- SIZED SWIMMING POOLS.

IT'S JUST - - I DON'T THINK PEOPLE UNDERSTAND THE SCALE OF THE KINDS OF WATER WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OR THE SCALE OF THE KINDS OF ELECTRICITY.

I MEAN, WHEN YOU TALK TO DIFFERENT RESEARCHERS, HOW CONCERNED WERE THEY?

>> VERY CONCERNED.

SO SOMETHING THAT WE IDENTIFIED IS THAT AS MANY AS 43% OF DATA CENTERS, AND THESE ARE OUR LARGEST DATA CENTERS, ARE CONSTRUCTED IN AREAS WHERE WE'RE ALREADY SEEING EXTREME WATER STRESS.

AND WHAT THAT MEANS, THERE IS NOT ENOUGH AVAILABLE WATER FOR THE RESIDENTS THAT ARE ALREADY THERE.

I THINK WHAT'S ALSO REALLY UNIQUE ABOUT DATA CENTERS, UNLIKE OTHER WATER INTENSIVE INDUSTRIES, DATA CENTERS ARE USING DRINKING WATER.

SO THAT MEANS, AGAIN, THAT THEY ARE COMPETING DIRECTLY WITH RESIDENTS WHO ARE NEED THAT DRINKING WATER TO JUST SURVIVE IN THE DESERT, FOR EXAMPLE.

SOME OF THESE DATA CENTERS THAT ARE BUILT IN MARICOPA, IT'S IN THE DESERT.

SO WATER IS A PRECIOUS AND FINITE RESOURCE.

>> WHO OWNS MOST OF THE DATA CENTERS THAT ARE COMING OUT?

HOW DID YOU FIND THAT OUT?

>> SO SOMETIMES THE PERMITS ARE ISSUED DIRECTLY TO THE COMPANY.

IT'S VERY CLEAR, YOU KNOW.

BUT IN MANY CASES, THEY ARE ISSUED TO SHELL LLCs.

SO WE HAD SPENT A LOT OF TIME LOOKING AT OTHER REGULATORY FILINGS BOTH AT THE STATE AND FEDERAL LEVEL TO SORT OF MATCH THOSE LLCs TO THEIR PARENT COMPANY.

ONCE WE DID THAT, IT WAS PRETTY CLEAR.

THE MOST DATA CENTERS ARE OPERATED BY AMAZON.

SO BY THE END OF 2024, THEY HAD 177 DATA CENTERS BY OUR COUNT.

AND THEN WE LOOKED AT, AGAIN, HOW POWER INTENSIVE THESE DATA CENTERS ARE.

AND THE TOP FIVE PROBABLY WON'T SURPRISE MOST PEOPLE.

THEY'RE THE BIG, BIG TECH COMPANIES THAT ARE INVESTING BILLIONS OF DOLLARS INTO DATA CENTER EXPANSION.

BUT IT'S AMAZON, GOOGLE, MICROSOFT, META, AND QTS.

>> MICROSOFT.

THEY SAID THEY REMAIN COMMITTED TO DEVELOPING AND SUPPORTING INNOVATIVE SOLUTIONS TO REDUCE EMISSIONS, FOCUSING ON LONG- TERM SOLUTIONS.

AMAZON, WHICH YOU MENTIONED, THEY SAID THEY AIM TO REACH NET-ZERO CARBON EMISSIONS ACROSS OUR OPERATIONS BY 2040.

META SAID THEY'RE COMMITTED TO FOSTERING THE LONG-TERM VITALITY OF THE COMMUNITIES WHERE THEY OPERATE.

QTS, WHICH IS A COMPANY THAT MOST PEOPLE HAVEN'T HEARD OF, BUT THAT OWNS A LOT OF THESE DATA CENTERS AS YOU POINT OUT, SAID 100% OF QTS CENTERS CONSTRUCTED SINCE 2018 CONSUME NO WATER FOR COOLING.

AND GOOGLE SAID THEY REDUCED THEIR DATA CENTER ENERGY EMISSIONS BY 12% IN 2024, DESPITE SIGNIFICANT GROWTH IN ELECTRICITY DEMAND.

YOU SPOKE TO A LOT OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE THAT WERE KIND OF LIVING IN THE NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE THESE DATA CENTERS ARE COMING NOW OR THEY'RE PLANNING TO COME.

WHAT WERE THE CONCERNS THAT THEY HAD, AS I GUESS NEIGHBORS?

>> WHAT YOU HAVE TO IMAGINE IS THESE FACILITIES ARE FIRST OF ALL, THEY'RE ENORMOUS.

MANY OF THEM ARE VERY, VERY LARGE.

THEY OPERATE 24/7.

SO WHAT THAT MEANS IS THAT THEY HAVE THESE LARGE INDUSTRIAL COOLING FANS THAT ARE OPERATION CONSTANTLY.

AND THOSE FANS ARE LOUD.

THEY EMIT A LOUD BUZZING DRONING NOISE THAT'S SO LOUD THAT WHEN WE SPOKE TO SOME RESIDENTS WHO THEIR HOUSES ARE BUILT JUST A COUPLE OF HUNDRED FEET AWAY, THAT CONSTANT NOISE IS SHAKING THEIR WINDOWS.

ONE RESIDENT TOLD US THAT HE HAD TO MOVE HIS FAMILY INTO THE BASEMENT IN ORDER TO TRY TO ESCAPE THE NOISE TO BE ABLE TO SLEEP.

SO IT'S SORT OF AN OMNIPRESENT FIXTURE OF THEIR LIVES NOW.

>> IN RESPONSE TO ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT YOU WERE TALKING TO IN YOUR STORY, AMAZON SAID "WE SAW A MEANINGFUL REDUCTION IN THE NOISE FROM THE IMPROVEMENTS. "

BASICALLY, MUFFLERS ON FANS, TALLER EXHAUST FANS, AND THEY'RE NOW OPERATING WELL BELOW ORDINANCE.

CONSIDERING WE'RE HEADING INTO A FUTURE THAT SEEMS TO INCLUDE ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, WHY SHOULD I GUESS GENERAL AMERICANS BE CONCERNED ABOUT THIS KIND OF ABSTRACT NOTION THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT, THESE LARGER INFRASTRUCTURE COSTS?

BECAUSE MOST OF US ARE JUST GETTING USED TO OH, HEY, LOOK, I CAN JUST DO THIS GREAT LITTLE SEARCH ON MY PHONE, AND IT WORKS.

SO I DON'T KNOW HAVE A DATA CENTER NEXT TO ME.

WHY SHOULD I CARE?

>> I THINK WHAT WE'RE SEEING IS A DRAMATIC EXPANSION IN DATA CENTERS THAT ARE ALREADY HAVING A DRAMATIC IMPACT ON, AGAIN, OUR GRIDS, OUR ELECTRICITY, THE ENVIRONMENT, THE CLEAN AIR THAT WE ENJOY AND THE CLEAN DRINKING WATER NEAR OUR COMMUNITIES.

SO MANY OF THESE COMPANIES, AGAIN, ARE POURING HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS THAT MAY AMOUNT TO AS MUCH AS A TRILLION DOLLARS IN CAPITAL EXPENDITURES IN THE NEXT COUPLE OF YEARS ALONE.

SO THE KIND OF BUILD-OUT THAT WE'RE SEEING IS ON A SCALE THAT WE FRANKLY HAVE NEVER REALLY SEEN BEFORE IN THIS COUNTRY.

SOME PEOPLE HAVE REALLY EQUATED IT TO SOMETHING LIKE THE INDUSTRIAL REVOLUTION OR HOW THE RAILROADS WERE EXPANDED ACROSS THE U. S. SO WE'RE SEEING A HUGE AMOUNT OF INVESTMENT IN SOMETHING THAT, AGAIN, REMAINS TO BE SEEN IF IT'S ACTUALLY GOING TO PAY OFF.

IT'S INCREDIBLY SPECULATIVE.

THE BIG TECH COMPANIES ARE BETTING BIG ON THAT SPECULATIVE FUTURE BUILT ON AI.

AGAIN, THE IMPACTS, THOUGH, ARE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

WE'RE SEEING HOW UTILITIES ARE MOVING AWAY FROM PLANNED GREEN ENERGY SUCH AS SOLAR AND WIND POWER TO KEEP MORE SORT OF COAL-FIRED PLANTS OR NATURAL GAS- FIRED PLANTS RUNNING.

AGAIN, IT'S GOING TO HAVE A REALLY OUTSIZED IMPACT ON CLIMATE CHANGE, FOR EXAMPLE, AND IT'S ALSO HAVING IMPACT, AGAIN, ON OUR WATER, WHERE WE LIVE, OUR COMMUNITIES NATIONWIDE AS THESE CONTINUE TO BE EXPANDED ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> WHAT IS THE ROLE OF GOVERNMENT TO TRY TO REGULATE THIS?

MAYBE GIVE US SOME PERSPECTIVE FROM ONE ADMINISTRATION TO THE NEXT OR AS THESE PROJECTS KEEP ROLLING OUT, IS THERE REGULATION SOMEWHERE THAT WE SHOULD LOOK AT AS A MODEL?

IS THERE REGULATION THAT'S FAILING SOMEWHERE THAT WE SHOULD TRY TO AVOID?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, IT'S BEEN INTERESTING TO LOOK AT IT HISTORICALLY.

SO WHEN YOU'RE LOOKING AT 2017, FOR EXAMPLE, SOME OF THESE VERY GIANT DATA CENTERS ARE GOING INTO OHIO.

OHIO REGULATORS ARE ALLOWING THE UTILITY, FOR EXAMPLE, TO GIVE THEM WHAT THEY CALL ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT RATES.

SO MEANING THAT A COMPANY LIKE META MIGHT ACTUALLY PAY A CHEAPER ELECTRICITY RATE TO KIND OF BUILD THEIR DATA CENTER.

YOU GO FROM THAT PERSPECTIVE IN 2017 TO AS RECENTLY AS THIS YEAR, WE'RE SEEING REGULATORS ACTUALLY THINK ACTUALLY, WE NEED TO ADD ADDITIONAL RIDERS ON TO THE CENTER TO MAKE SURE THEY'RE PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE FOR THE TRANSITION COST, THAT WE'RE NOT DISPLACING THE COSTS ON TO RESIDENTS AND SMALL BUSINESSES IN THE NEARBY AREAS, THAT DATA CENTERS ARE PAYING THEIR FAIR SHARE FOR ELECTRICITY COSTS.

SO WE ARE STARTING TO SEE SOME REGULATORY EFFORTS TAKING PLACE IN OHIO, VIRGINIA AND GEORGIA.

IT KIND OF REMAINS TO BE SEEN IF THOSE SAME REGULATIONS ARE ADOPTED NATIONWIDE.

>> IS THIS JUST THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS IN A FUTURE WITH AI?

>> GREAT QUESTION.

I THINK THE PROBLEM IS THAT NONE OF US REALLY KNOW.

SO MUCH OF THIS, AGAIN, SPECULATIVE.

WE'RE NOT SEEING THE PAYOUT THAT WE EXPECT TO SEE IN ECONOMIES OR HOW IT'S TRANSFORMING SORT OF OUR WORK LIFE IN THE SAME WAY THAT SOME OF THESE BIG TECH COMPANIES ARE PROMISING.

WHAT WE ARE SEEING, THOUGH, IS A DRAMATIC CHANGE IN HOW OUR ELECTRICITY IS PRODUCED, HOW THE IMPACT ON THE ENVIRONMENT IS, OUR ELECTRICITY COSTS, THE AMOUNT OF CLEAN WATER WE HAVE.

SO I THINK WE JUST HAVE TO REALLY THINK YEAH, MAYBE THIS IS THE COST OF DOING BUSINESS IF WE WANT THIS FUTURE BUILT ON AI.

BUT IS THAT COST TOO HIGH.

>> INVESTIGATOR REPORTER WITH "BUSINESS INSIDER" HANNAH BECKLER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.