> >> THE NUMBER OF DRUG OVERDOSE DEATHS IN THE UNITED STATES HAS FALLEN SHARPLY IN RECENT YEARS.

THAT IS BEING LINKED IN PART TO THE ADOPTION OF HARM REDUCTION POLICIES WHICH PRIORITIZE THE HEALTH AND WELL-BEING OF DRUG USERS RATHER THAN CRIMINALIZING THEM.

WHILE EFFECTIVE IN SOME AMERICAN AND CANADIAN CITIES, ATLANTIC STAFF WRITER MICHAEL POWELL SAYS THAT IT HAS ADVERSELY ENCOURAGED PUBLIC DRUG USE IN OTHER CITIES, AND HE SHARES HIS OBSERVATIONS WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

AND MICHAEL POWELL, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU.

MY PLEASURE.

>> YOU HAVE A VERY PROVOCATIVE PIECE IN THE ATLANTIC.

IT'S CALLED "THE CITIES THAT SAID YES TO DRUGS. "

IT'S ABOUT THE WHOLE ISSUE OF HARM REDUCTION.

EXPLAIN TO ME WHAT HARM REDUCTION IS.

>> SURE.

I MEAN, HARM REDUCTION WAS BORN OF AN INARGUABLE IT SEEMS TO ME HUMANITARIAN IMPULSE.

IT BEGAN DURING WITH DRUG USERS DURING THE TIME OF THE AIDS EPIDEMIC.

SO THAT WOULD BE THE LATE 80s AND THE EARLY 90s.

AND THERE WAS A GREAT CONCERN TO KEEP THEM FROM --THAT IS DRUG ADDICTS FROM SHARING NEEDLES.

BECAUSE THAT WAS OBVIOUSLY A VERY EASY WAY TO SPREAD AIDS.

SO THEY STARTED NEEDLE EXCHANGES WHERE THEY WOULD GO AROUND, THAT IS ACTIVISTS, THE LIKE, AND TAKE DIRTY NEEDLES, GIVE CLEAN NEEDLES.

AND THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO DOUBT THAT THAT KEPT A LOT OF PEOPLE ALIVE AND GAVE YOU A CHANCE TO GET THEM INTO DRUG TREATMENT AND THE LIKE.

OVER TIME, THAT'S METAMORPHOSED INTO A MUCH KIND OF GRANDER PROJECT, WHICH IS TO SET UP INJECTION SITES WHERE PEOPLE CAN LEGALLY TAKE THEIR DRUGS AND INJECT HEROIN OR METH OR FENTANYL.

AND IT'S ALSO LED TO A BIG PUSH NOT TO HAVE ANY LEGAL CONSEQUENCES FOR PEOPLE.

THE WHOLE NOTION OF SORT OF MEETING PEOPLE WHERE THEY ARE.

THAT IS TO SAY IF YOU'RE A DRUG ADDICT, DON'T COME IN AND TRY TO CONVINCE THEM TO GO INTO TREATMENT OR THAT THEY SHOULD GIVE UP THEIR DRUGS AND THEIR WORKS.

MEET THEM WHERE THEY ARE.

AND THAT IT'S KIND OF NOT OUR BUSINESS, THAT IS SOCIETY AT LARGE, TO TELL THEM WHAT THEY CAN AND CAN'T DO.

>> IT SEEMED IF YOU ALLOWED THIS, THERE IS A CERTAIN CONTEMPT FOR THE WORKING CLASS AND MIDDLE CLASS PEOPLE THAT HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT.

AND THEN THEY GET STIGMATIZED I'LL SAY BY OBJECTING TO HAVING TO WALK THROUGH OPEN AIR DRUG MARKETS.

DO YOU THINK PART OF THIS WAS AN ELITE SORT OF CONDESCENSION TO THE MIDDLE CLASS AND WORKING CLASS PEOPLE WHO DIDN'T LIKE HAVING THIS IN THEIR NEIGHBORHOODS?

>> SIMPLY PUT, YES.

AND THAT'S ACTUALLY WHAT DREW ME TO WRITING ABOUT THIS.

I HAD SEEN WHAT HAD HAPPENED IN ANOTHER CITY I LOOKED AT IN BURLINGTON, VERMONT, BECAUSE I GO UP -- MY FAMILY IS FROM UP THERE GOING BACK SOME GENERATIONS.

AND I HAD SEEN THE TRANSFORMATION OF A NUMBER OF KIND OF WORKING CLASS NEIGHBORHOODS IN BURLINGTON TO PLACES WHERE DRUG USE WAS OPEN.

IT WAS HAPPENING ON PORCH ES AND CEMETERY AND CHURCHES.

AND YES, I THINK THAT LOST IN THE NOTION OF MEETING AN ADDICT WHERE THEY ARE IS HOW ABOUT MEETING A NEIGHBORHOOD OR A CITY WHERE IT IS.

>> IN YOUR PIECE, IT STARTS I THINK YOUR PIECE WITH SEATTLE, LITTLE SAIGON.

TELL ME WHAT HAPPENS WHEN IT HITS SEATTLE AND WHAT THE REACTION THERE HAS BEEN.

>> SEATTLE IS A PLACE, IT'S VERY --ITS POLITICS ARE VERY LEFT LIBERAL.

IT'S NOT TO BLAME.

THERE ARE --THERE ARE PEOPLE OF LEFT LIBERAL POLITICS THAT ARE NOT HAPPY WITH THIS --WITH THE CURRENT SITUATION.

BUT CERTAINLY THE DOMINANT ETHOS THERE WAS, AGAIN, THIS KIND OF MIX OF, EXCUSE ME, LEFT POLITICS AND LIBERTARIAN POLITICS AND THE NOTION THAT YOU MIGHT, SAY, GO TO LITTLE SAIGON WHERE I COUNTED 250 PEOPLE USING AND DEALING IN A ONE-BLOCK AREA.

AND NOT JUST MOVE PEOPLE AWAY, BUT FRANKLY, SAY, LOOK, WE CAN DO ONE OF TWO THINGS.

WE CAN ARREST AND JAIL YOU, WHICH DOESN'T REALLY SERVE ANY PARTICULAR PURPOSE, OR WE COULD GO INTO --YOU CAN SIGN UP FOR DRUG TREATMENT, AND WE'RE GOING HELP YOU GET INTO THAT.

AND THERE HAS ACTUALLY BEEN A FAIR AMOUNT OF SUCCESS WITH THAT IN SOME OTHER CITIES.

THAT'S NOT HAPPENED IN SEATTLE.

SO AS A RESULT, YOU HAVE THIS TERRIBLE SITUATION WHERE YOU HAVE, AS I SAY, 250 PEOPLE IN ONE BLOCK.

I SAW THREE WOMEN LYING FLAT ON THE GROUND, I MEAN BREATHING IMPERCEPTIBLY.

FENTANYL IS AN ENORMOUSLY DANGEROUS DRUG.

I RUN AROUND THE CORNER, THERE'S A BEAUTIFUL NEW PARK THAT THEY HAD JUST OPENED UP FOR THE -- REALLY, FOR THE VIETNAMESE COMMUNITY.

AND THERE WERE --I COUNTED THERE ABOUT 25 USERS.

AND, AGAIN, NO --NOT A KID IN SIGHT.

SO IT'S A GRIM SITUATION.

AND I CAN PLAY THIS, WE CAN SORT OF PLAY THIS OUT GEOGRAPHICALLY AND GO AROUND SEATTLE.

THERE'S PROBABLY 15, 20 PLACES JUST AS BADLY HIT.

>> PERSONALIZE IT FOR ME ABOUT THE PEOPLE, MIDDLE CLASS, WORKING CLASS PEOPLE THERE.

THERE WAS A STORY ABOUT A WOMAN ON A BUS WITH HER 6-YEAR-OLD.

THAT PERSONALIZED IT.

TELL ME THAT STORY.

>> I SAW HER, THIS YOUNG WOMAN, A MOTHER WAITING FOR THE BUS.

SO I WALKED ACROSS THE STREET FROM THE PARK TO TALK WITH HER.

AND I ASKED HER, WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THIS?

SHE WAS ONE OF THE PEOPLE THAT I ASKED WELL, DO YOU EVER USE THE PARK?

AND SHE LOOKED AT ME LIKE I'D LOST MY MIND.

AND SHE TOLD ME, THIS SAME BUS STOP SOME WEEKS EARLIER, SHE HAD HAD HER 6-YEAR-OLD DAUGHTER WITH HER.

THEY HAD GOTTEN ON THE BUS, AND SHE SMELLED SOMETHING.

I MEAN, SHE SMELLED FENTANYL BEING SMOKED.

AND SHE PANICKED AND SHE LOOKED AROUND.

HER DAUGHTER HAS ASTHMA.

SO SHE WAS GOING TO BE SENSITIVE TO THE SMOKING TO BEGIN WITH.

BUT FENTANYL IS AN ENORMOUSLY DANGEROUS DRUG.

SO BEING IN AN ENCLOSED AREA WHERE SOMEBODY --WITH FENTANYL TERRIFIED HER.

SHE SCREAMED AT THE PERSON WHAT ARE YOU DOING, AND THEN SHE SCREAMED AT THE BUS DRIVER TO SAY PLEASE STOP THE BUS, LET ME GET OFF.

AND SHE DID.

AND IT LEFT HER TERRIFIED.

AND WHEN SHE CALLED THE CITY TO SAY LOOK, THIS IS GOING ON, THEY SENT A -- THEY HAVE THESE TEAMS THAT COMMUNITY RESPONSE TEAMS.

AND THIS PARTICULAR TEAM WENT UP AND ENDED UP HANDING OUT SAFE DRUG USE --YOU KNOW, SAFE DRUG USE KITS THAT GIVE LIKE TIN FOIL AND A PIPE AND THIS SORT OF THING.

SO, YEAH.

IT'S IN A VERY REAL WAY, IT KEEPS PEOPLE LOCKED IN THEIR HOMES.

>> BUT IN 2023, DIDN'T SEATTLE START PUSHING BACK ON SOME OF THIS POLITICALLY?

AND WHAT ARE THEY DOING NOW?

AND IS THAT CHANGING THINGS?

>> THAT'S THE STRANGE THING WITH SEATTLE IS THEY SEEM TO HAVE THIS, YOU KNOW, REACTION TO THIS POLITICALLY.

AND THEY ELECTED A VERY MODERATE REPUBLICAN CITY ATTORNEY.

THEY HAD A, WELL, A WOMAN WHO WOULD BE CLASSIFIED AS SAFELY LIBERAL IN MOST CITIES IN AMERICA, BUT NOT IN SEATTLE AS THE HEAD OF THE CITY COUNCIL.

AND THEY STARTED TO MAKE, I THINK, SOME INTERESTING PROGRESS.

AND AGAIN, NEITHER OF THEM WERE CLASSICALLY WHAT WE THINK OF AS DRUG WAR, LOCK PEOPLE UP, PUT THEM AWAY.

BUT THEY'RE SAYING LOOK, WE NEED TO KIND OF COMBINE CARROT AND STICK HERE.

WE NEED TO TAKE SOME EFFORTS TO RECLAIM STREETS AND PARKS.

AND THEY WERE MAKING SOME REAL PROGRESS.

AND IN THE LAST ELECTION, BOTH OF THEM WERE DEFEATED BY PEOPLE WHO ARE STRONGLY IN FAVOR OF THE HARM REDUCTION POLICIES THAT SEATTLE PUT IN PLACE BEFORE.

>> SO WHY DOES THE POPULATION --YOU'RE SAYING THIS IS REALLY HURTING WORKING CLASS PEOPLE.

WHY WOULD THE POPULATION SAY HEY, WE DON'T WANT TO BE TOO TOUGH ON PEOPLE USING DRUGS?

>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION, AND ONE I ASK MYSELF A LOT.

AND I THINK ONE OF --IT'S A COMPLICATED ANSWER.

A LOT OF THE POLLING THERE SHOWS PEOPLE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CRIME, WHICH OFTEN COMES DOWN TO DRUGS AND DRUG TRADE AND ALSO PROSTITUTION, WHICH IS RELATED TO DRUGS AND THE DRUG TRADE.

AT THE SAME TIME, THIS IS A QUITE WEALTHY CITY, AND THE POLITICS ARE VERY MUCH IN KIND OF UPPER MIDDLE CLASS POLITICS, AND ALSO UPPER MIDDLE CLASS AND LEFTY.

LEFTY CAN BE ALSO YOUNG COLLEGE STUDENTS, POSTCOLLEGE.

AND THAT GROUP TO A CERTAIN EXTENT STILL VERY MUCH KIND OF DOMINATES THE ELECTIONS THERE.

SO WHEN YOU LOOKED AT WHERE --WHERE THESE REFORMERS HAD BEEN, WHERE THEY HAD BEEN, YOU KNOW, STRONGEST AND STUFF, THAT WAS IN MORE WORKING CLASS NEIGHBORHOODS.

AND, YEAH.

BUT HAVING SAID THAT, I DON'T --YOU KNOW, MY ANSWER IS INCOMPLETE HERE BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST WORKING CLASS PEOPLE THAT SUFFER HERE.

THERE HAS BEEN ANY NUMBER OF PARKS WHERE FOR THE LONGEST TIME SEATTLE'S REACTION WHEN YOU WOULD GET, SAY, A TENT ENCAMPMENT OF 30, 40, 50.

AND BIG ENCAMPMENTS.

AND THEY'RE ALL USING DRUGS, AND THEY'RE ALL DEALING AND USING AND STUFF, WAS TO CLOSE OFF THE PARK.

I MEAN, QUITE LITERALLY, PUT UP A FENCE AROUND THE PARK.

AND SO, OKAY, I GUESS.

YOU'VE PREVENTED THEM FROM CAMPING THERE, BUT YOU'VE ALSO PREVENTED PEOPLE FROM USING THE VERY BEAUTIFUL PARKS IN SEATTLE.

SO LET'S SAY IT'S A CONUNDRUM AS I LOOK THERE AS TO WHAT'S GOING ON.

>> IF YOU WERE IN SEATTLE AND SOMEBODY WALKS UP TO YOU, THEY'RE HOMELESS, THEY'RE LIVING ON THE STREETS, DRUG ADDICTED AND THEY SAY OKAY, I WANT OUT.

I WANT TO DO SOMETHING, WHAT'S THE PROCESS?

HOW HARD WOULD IT BE?

COULD THEY IMMEDIATELY GET TREATMENT AND GET A BED?

>> THAT'S A GREAT QUESTION.

AND THE ANSWER IS PROBABLY MIXED.

THERE CERTAINLY ARE -- I KNOW THE GROUPS.

IN FACT SEVERAL OF THE GROUPS I TALKED WITH WHO WORK WITH THESE FOLKS AND WHO ARGUE THESE ARE NONPROFITS, STRONGLY THAT THERE ARE WAYS TO GET THEM HELP, BUT THAT THE CITY SHOWS LITTLE OR NO INTEREST IN DOING SO.

NOW IF THEY WERE REALLY SUCCESSFUL, IF THE CITY MADE A COMMITMENT WE'RE GOING TO MOVE AS MANY PEOPLE AS WE CAN INTO TREATMENT, SURE, THEY COULD END UP, I SUPPOSE, YOU KNOW, IN A PLACE WHERE THEY DON'T HAVE ENOUGH TREATMENT BEDS.

BUT RIGHT NOW THAT ISN'T THE PROBLEM THERE.

RIGHT NOW THE PROBLEM IS THE RESISTANCE OF THE POLITICAL CULTURE TO, IF YOU WILL, KIND OF EMBRACE THE TRUE NATURE OF THE DISASTER THAT THEY'RE FACING ON THE STREETS.

>> YOU CITE MORE THAN 7,000 OVERDOSE DEATHS IN SEATTLE FROM 2016 TO 2025, YET WEST VIRGINIA WITH AN EVEN SMALLER POPULATION AND NO DRUG DECRIMINALIZATION, IN OTHER WORDS, THEY DON'T FOLLOW THESE POLICIES, THEY RECORDED NEARLY 10,000 OVERDOSE DEATHS.

WHAT DOES THAT SUGGEST TO YOU?

>> WELL, IT SUGGESTS TO ME, WHICH HAS BEEN TRUE FOR DECADES NOW, ALAS, THAT IN WEST VIRGINIA, THE DRUG LEVELS OF DRUG ADDICTION AND HOPELESSNESS ARE EXTRAORDINARY.

THEY ALSO HAVE VERY HIGH RATES OF SUICIDE.

IT'S A --IF YOU GO TO SOME OF THESE TOWNS, THEY'RE QUITE RUNDOWN, AND THE DEALERS ARE VERY EASILY SEEN.

I DON'T PRETEND TO BE AN EXPERT IN WEST VIRGINIA, BUT I WOULD SAY THAT, YOU KNOW, IT'S HARD TO LOOK AT PLACE LIKE SEATTLE, SAN FRANCISCO, BURLINGTON, THESE ARE PRETTY WELL TO DO PLACES AND THINK, WELL, DO YOU REALLY WANT COMPARE YOURSELF SAY, WELL, MAYBE THE WORST OFF PLACE IN AMERICA IN TERMS OF INCOME AND THE LIKE IS A LITTLE BIT WORSE THAN WE ARE.

SO I'M NOT --YEAH.

SEATTLE IS A --ONE OF THE FIVE WEALTHIEST CITIES IN AMERICA.

AND SO IT'S AWFULLY HARD TO ARGUE THAT, YOU KNOW, IT HAS NO OTHER CHOICE THAN THE ONE IT'S MADE.

>> I'VE WALKED AROUND SAN FRANCISCO A LOT OVER MANY, MANY YEARS, AND ABOUT FIVE OR SIX YEARS AGO IN PARTICULAR WHERE OPEN AIR DRUG MARKETS, IT FELT DANGEROUS.

AND WHAT HAVE THEY DONE?

>> THE MAYOR THERE, MAYOR LURIE IS NEW MAYOR, AND HE RAN ON A VERY EXPLICIT PLATFORM OF REFORM.

AGAIN, THE GUY IS A LIBERAL BY ANY, YOU KNOW, THE MEASURE OF ALMOST ANY CITY IN AMERICA, BUT HERE HE SAID LOOK, THIS IS UNACCEPTABLE.

COMMITTEE CAN'T HAVE --THEY ESSENTIALLY HAD DE FACTO INJECTION ZONES WHERE THEY WOULD PUT UP YOU KNOW, A KIND OF CANVAS AROUND THESE AREAS WHERE PEOPLE WOULD COME IN AND USE.

THEY WOULD NEVER ARREST PEOPLE.

THE TENDER --WE COULD RATTLE OFF A BUNCH.

THE MISSION, THE TENDERLOIN, A WHOLE BUNCH OF NEIGHBORHOODS WHERE DEALERS AND USERS WERE DOMINATING.

AND THAT --HE BASICALLY SAID THAT, MUCH LIKE WE'RE TALKING ABOUT RIGHT HERE, THAT'S UNACCEPTABLE.

THAT'S NOT AN ACCEPTABLE WAY FOR A WORKING CLASS FAMILY, THE MOTHER, A FATHER TRYING TO RAISE KIDS TO HAVE TO COME OUT.

AND I'VE SEEN IT.

YOU'VE NO DOUBT SEEN IT, AND PEOPLE ARE SHOOTING UP RIGHT THERE.

SO HE'S MADE A REAL --IT'S -- >> WHAT DID HE DO?

HOW DID HE MAKE IT WORK?

>> WELL, I MEAN, ONE IS THEY PUT A LOT MORE EMPHASIS ON SWEEPING THE TENTS OUT OF THE BACK ALLEYS AND THAT KIND OF STUFF.

>> BUT WHEN YOU SWEEP THE TENTS OUT AND THE ENCAMPMENTS OUT, WHAT HAPPENS?

>> WELL, THEN YOU HAVE TO COMBINE WIT A REAL EFFORT TO GET PEOPLE INTO TREATMENT, BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO --YOU'RE NOT GOING TO -- WELL, THERE IS TWO THINGS HAPPEN.

ONE IS YOU HAVE TO GET PEOPLE INTO TREATMENT, BECAUSE OTHERWISE YOU KIND OF CYCLE, RIGHT.

NUMBER TWO IS PLACES LIKE SEATTLE, PLACES LIKE SAN FRANCISCO, PLACES LIKE BURLINGTON BECOME A PLACE --AND I DON'T -- THIS ISN'T TO MINIMIZE THE PAIN IF YOU'RE ADDICTED TO DRUGS, BUT FOR DRUG TOURISM.

YOU HAVE LIKE COMING INTO SAN FRANCISCO, SAN FRANCISCO BECAME KNOWN AS THE PLACE IF YOU'RE IN NEVADA, NORTHERN CALIFORNIA, YOU WANT TO SCORE, YOU WANT THE EASIEST POSSIBLE LIFE YOU COULD HAVE AS AN ADDICT.

AND AGAIN, THAT CAN BE A PRETTY HIDEOUS LIFE, BUT NONETHELESS, YOU GO TO SAN FRANCISCO BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET ARRESTED.

YOU'RE NOT GOING GET PUSHED.

THE DEALERS, THE POLICE ARE NOT GOING AFTER THE DEALERS.

ALL OF THAT HAS HAPPENED UNDER LURIE.

I SHOULD SAY THE REVERSE OF ALL THAT HAS HAPPENED UNDER LURIE.

>> DOES THAT MEAN THESE PEOPLE ARE JUST BEING MOVED INTO OTHER CITIES?

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW.

THE QUESTION IS --I MEAN, TO SOME EXTENT -- I DON'T KNOW.

I SHOULD ADMIT WHAT ISN'T KNOWN AT THIS POINT.

BUT THERE ARE MORE PEOPLE GOING INTO TREATMENT.

SO THAT'S AN AMBIGUOUS GOOD THING.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS DONALD TRUMP WHEN HE SIGNED AN EXECUTIVE ORDER ABOUT A YEAR AGO SAID THAT MOST PEOPLE WHO ARE STREET HOMELESS, PEOPLE LIVING ON THE STREETS, ENCAMPMENTS, HAVE DRUG ISSUES AND THEY SHOULD BE PUT IN DRUG TREATMENT.

THAT RIGHT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK IT IS.

LOOK, THERE IS TWO THINGS.

PARTICULARLY STREET HOMELESSNESS.

THERE IS VERY HIGH RATES OF MENTAL AND EMOTIONAL ILLNESS, AND THERE ARE VERY HIGH RATES OF DRUG USE.

SO TO THE EXTENT THAT YOU CAN GET THESE FOLKS INTO THE SYSTEM, RIGHT, I MEAN INTO THE SYSTEM BEING IN TREATMENT, WITH TREATMENT THEY'RE GOING TO START GETTING THEIR, YOU KNOW, WHATEVER MENTAL ILLNESS PROBLEMS THEY MIGHT HAVE ADDRESSED, IT'S GOING TO BE A NET POSITIVE.

AND THAT'S A -- IT'S INTERESTING --IT STRIKES ME THAT'S A LARGELY LIBERAL VISION OF HOW YOU DO THIS, RIGHT.

AND SOMEHOW THAT'S BEEN FLIPPED ON ITS SIDE AND SEEN AS A REACTIONARY APPROACH.

AND THAT'S I THINK WHAT'S BEEN SO PUZZLING LOOKING AT THIS.

>> MICHAEL POWELL, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS SO MUCH.

GREAT TALKING WITH YOU, WALTER.