HELLO EVERYONE AND WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP ISRAEL MARKS A GRIM ANNIVERSARY TWO YEARS SINCE THE HAMAS ATTACK THAT FOREVER CHANGED THE NATION I SPEAK WITH OCTOBER 7TH ISRAEL JOURNALIST, AMIR TABON.

ALSO, WE REVISIT TESTIMONY FROM FORMER HOSTAGES HELD BY HAMAS.

>>> ALSO, ON THE GROUND IN GAZA.

UNICEF SPOKESMAN JAMES ELDER SHARES WHAT HE IS SEEING AND HOW WAR HAS RAVAGED THE ENCLAVE.

>>> THEN, PALESTINIAN PEACE ACTIVIST AZIZ ABU SERA ON LOOKING FOR LIGHT IN THE DARKNESS.

PLUS.

>>> AUTISM FOR ME HAS BEEN SO DIFFERENT BECAUSE OF HOW IT CAN LOOK IN KIDS LIKE MINE.

>> THIS BAY WE MADE.

WRITER TAYLOR HARRIS TELLS MICHELLE MARTIN WHAT IT'S LIKE TO BE AUTISTIC AND RAISE AUTISTIC CHILDREN IN THE ERA OF RFK JR.

>>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- >> COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITY.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

FOR SO MANY IN ISRAEL, THE WOUNDS ARE AS FRESH AS EVER.

THE SHOCK OF THAT DAY.

THE VIOLENCE HAMAS INFLECTED AND THE FAILURES OF THE SECURITY INSTITUTION TO PROTECT ITS CITIZENS HAVE TAKEN THE COUNTRY AND THE WORLD TO WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

TWO YEARS OF UNRELENTING WAR, TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE DEAD IN GAZA, AND FOUR DOZEN HOSTAGES STILL BEING HELD INSIDE THE ENCLAVE, 20 OF WHOM ARE THOUGHT TO STILL BE ALIVE.

NEGOTIATORS ARE IN EGYPT PROPOSING TO MAKE TRUMP'S CEASE FIRE PROPOSAL A REALITY.

JEREMY, I BELIEVE YOU HAVE BEEN COVERING THIS WAR.

THE ASSIGNMENT WHERE YOU MOVE TO ISRAEL, COVERING THE REGION BEGAN JUST A DAY OR TWO BEFORE OCTOBER 7th AND THIS IS THE STORY YOU BEGAN YOUR COVERAGE WITH.

YOU HAVE SPENT TIME ON THE GROUND THERE COVERING AND SPEAKING WITH HOSTAGE FAMILY MEMBERS, EVERYDAY ISRAELIS WHO HAVE BEEN TOUCHED BY THIS HORRIFIC DAY.

AND OBVIOUSLY THE WAR THAT BEGAN A FEW WEEKS AFTER OCTOBER 7th, 2023.

IN GAZA.

LET'S JUST START WHERE YOU ARE RIGHT NOW.

IN HOSTAGE SQUARE.

AND TALK TO US ABOUT WHAT THIS SECOND YEAR MARKS FOR SO MANY STILL WAITING FOR THIS WAR TO COME TO AN END AND THE HOSTAGES TO COME HOME.

>> Reporter: ON THE TWO YEAR ANNIVERSARY OF OCTOBER 7th, IT IS A SOMBER MOOD HERE IN HOSTAGE SQUARE AND ACROSS ISRAEL WHERE THEY COMMEMORATE THE DAY TWO YEARS AGO WHEN HAMAS CAME IN AND SLAUGHTERED.

MORE THAN 250 PEOPLE WERE ALSO TAKEN HOSTAGE ON THAT DAY.

48 OF WHOM REMAIN IN CAPTIVITY INSIDE OF GAZA.

AND TODAY, MIXED WITH THAT SOMBER MOOD IS ALSO A SENSE OF HOPE.

A SENSE OF OPTIMISM THAT PERHAPS THESE NEGOTIATIONS HAPPENING IN EGYPT WILL POTENTIALLY YIELD AN END OF THE WAR AND THE RETURN OF THOSE 48 HOSTAGES.

20 OF WHOM ARE BELIEVED TO BE ALIVE.

YOU CAN SEE ISRAELIS ARE SEATED TOGETHER.

THEY ARE REALLY HUDDLING HOLDING THEMSELVES TOGETHER IN THIS MOMENT.

THEY ARE LISTENING TO MUSIC RIGHT NOW JUST SPENDING TIME TAKING IT ALL IN.

TAKING STOCK OF WHAT HAS TAKEN PLACE THE LAST TWO YEARS BUT UNLIKE WITH OTHER TERRORIST ATTACKS WHERE YOU HAVE COMMEMORATIONS YEARS LATER, ISRAELIS ARE VERY MUCH IN THAT MOMENT OF TRAUMA IN THAT MOMENT OF WAR THAT CONTINUES TWO YEARS LATER INSIDE OF THE GAZA STRIP AS WELL.

AND ALSO, STILL TWO YEARS LATER, CONTINUING TO FIGHT.

I HAVE BEEN SPENDING TIME OVER THE WEEKEND WITH VICKY COHEN, THE MOTHER OF THE SOLDIER TAKEN CAPTIVE THAT DAY AND ONE OF THOSE 48 STILL HELD IN GAZA.

AND I CAN TELL YOU THAT THEY WILL CONTINUE TO FIGHT UNTIL THE MOMENT WHEN THEY COME HOME.

EVEN RIGHT NOW WITH THAT HOPE AND OPTIMISM, THEY FEEL IT IS IMPORTANT TO CONTINUE TO HOLD THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT'S FEET TO THE FIRE.

AMID THESE COMMEMORATIONS WE ARE CONTINUING TO SEE CONTINUATIONS OF DEMONSTRATIONS FROM THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES DEMANDING A POSITIVE CONCLUSION.

>> IT IS A REMINDER OF HOW SMALL THAT COUNTRY IS.

AND HOW EVERY SINGLE PERSON IN ISRAEL HAS BEEN TOUCHED IN SOME WAY, SHAPE OR FORM BY THE TRAGEDY AND THE HORRIFIC ATTACK OF OCTOBER 7th AND THE WAR THAT ENSUED AFTER THAT.

SO MANY OF THEM HAVE COME TO THAT SQUARE DEMANDING THE HOSTAGES COME HOME.

SEEKING SOME SORT OF RESOLUTION SO THE COUNTRY CAN START TO HEAL.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> AND, EARLIER, I SPOKE WITH OMER WHO WAS HELD HOSTAGE IN GAZA 405 DAYS AFTER BEING ABDUCTED BY HAMAS FROM THE MUSIC FESTIVAL OCTOBER 7.

HE JOINED ME AND GAVE ME HIS MEMORIES OF THAT EXTREMELY DIFFICULT DAY.

>> I REMEMBER, ME AND TWO OF MY FRIENDS RUNNING FOR OUR LIVES.

SEEING PEOPLE JUST GETTING SHOT EVERYWHERE.

BODIES EVERYWHERE WE RAN TO.

I REMEMBER AS WE GET INTO A VEHICLE AND WE TRIED TO RUN AWAY BUT THE HAMAS TERRORISTS, THEY STOPPED US IN THE MIDDLE OF THE ROAD.

IMMEDIATELY, THEY STARTED SHOOTING US.

THEY DIDN'T GIVE MUCH NOTICE BEFORE SOLDIERS IF WE ARE CITIZENS.

THEY JUST STARTED SHOOTING US IMMEDIATELY.

I REMEMBER TWO OF MY FRIENDS GETTING SHOT.

ONE OF THEM STARTED RUNNING AWAY.

WAS ALSO KIDNAPPED AND BRUTALLY MURDERED IN CAPTIVITY.

BUT I REMEMBER THAT DAY SO CLEARLY.

TODAY WHEN I WOKE UP IN THE MORNING EVERYTHING JUST FLEW PAST ME.

IT IS CRAZY TO THINK WE ARE TWO YEARS INTO IT AND THERE ARE STILL HOSTAGES THERE.

>> AMIR TABON HAS BEEN FOLLOWING THIS ALSO AS A SURVIVOR OF OCTOBER 7th.

THAT DAY, HE WAS SHELTERING WITH HIS FAMILY AS HAMAS ATTACKED HIS HOME AND WAS EVENTUALLY RESCUED BY HIS OWN FATHER.

A RETIRED GENERAL WHO DROVE FROM TEL AVIV TO SAVE HIS FAMILY.

AMIR WROTE ABOUT IT IN HIS BOOK THE GATES OF GAZA.

HIS FATHER'S ACT OF BRAVERY IS THE SUBJECT OF A NEW DOCUMENTARY.

THE ROAD BETWEEN US.

AMIR, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

YOU ARE A VERY FAMILIAR FACE FOR OUR VIEWERS BECAUSE YOU COME ON TYPICALLY AS A REPORTER TO GIVE US THE LATEST UPDATES ON THE WAR AND THE SITUATION WITH THE HOSTAGES AND ANY SORT OF AGREEMENT ON THAT FRONT BUT TODAY IS DIFFERENT NOW.

THE TWO YEAR MARK OF THAT HORRIFIC DAY WHERE YOU AS A FATHER, AS AN ISRAELI, AS A SON AS A SON, WERE SHELTERING IN YOUR SAFE ROOM FOR HOURS, FOR HOURS WAITING FOR THE MILITARY THAT NEVER CAME.

INSTEAD, IT CAME IN THE FORM OF YOUR FATHER.

A FORMER MILITARY GENERAL TO RESCUE YOU.

AS WE ARE TWO YEARS NOW AFTER THAT HORRIFIC DATE, HOW DOES THIS COMMEMORATION TODAY DIFFER FOR YOU FROM EVEN LAST YEAR'S?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR CONTINUING TO HIGHLIGHT OCTOBER 7th AND THE SUFFERING OF THE HOSTAGES AND THE URGENCY OF RESCUING THEM AND BRINGING THEM BACK TO THEIR FAMILIES INCLUDING MY NEIGHBOR AND FRIEND WHO WAS KIDNAPPED FROM HIS HOME, A CIVILIAN COMMUNITY ON THE BORDER WITH GAZA IS A. KIDNAPPED IN FRONT OF THE EYES OF HIS TWO YOUNG DAUGHTERS AND WE ARE STILL FIGHTING TWO YEARS LATER TO BRING HIM BACK ALIVE TO HIS FAMILY.

IT IS SHOCKING WE HAVE REACHED TWO YEARS AND HE IS STILL NOT WITH US.

IN TERMS OF THE MEMORY, THIS IS A DIFFICULT DAY FOR EVERYBODY.

IT IS A DAY WHEN WE REMEMBER THE CATASTROPHE OF WHAT HAPPENED ON OCTOBER 7th.

WE ALSO REMEMBER THE COURAGE AND BRAVERY OF THE INDIVIDUALS, THE SOLDIERS, THE POLICEMEN.

YOU ARE RIGHT TO SAY THE MILITARY IS AN ORGANIZATION FAILED ON OCTOBER 7th BUT I DO WANT TO MENTION A LOT OF YOUNG SOLDIERS AND SOME OLDER ONES AS WELL SHOW GREAT ACTS OF COURAGE AND DID EVERYTHING THEY COULD TO RESCUE CIVILIANS IN MY COMMUNITY SO IT IS A VERY COMPLICATED DAY BECAUSE THERE IS A LEVEL OF ANGER TOWARD THE GOVERNMENT AND THE MILITARY FOR THE FAILURE.

BUT ALSO, A LOT OF APPRECIATION FOR THE PEOPLE WHO DID COME AND FIGHT AND SOME OF THEM LOST THEIR LIVES AND I THINK THE MOST IMPORTANT MISSION IS TO MAKE OCTOBER 7th END AND OCTOBER 7 WILL ONLY END WHEN WE REACH A DEAL TO BRING BACK THE HOSTAGES AND FINISH THE WAR.

UNTIL THAT HAPPENS WE ARE STILL IN OCTOBER 7th.

>> AND, YOU'RE RIGHT TO POINT OUT THE BRAVERY OF INDIVIDUALS THERE.

WE SHOULD ALSO NOTE THAT I BELIEVE SEVERAL HUNDRED SOLDIERS DIED THAT DAY AS WELL FIGHTING THE HAMAS TERRORISTS AND THAT NUMBER IS CLOSE TO A THOUSAND NEW NOW AT THIS POINT.

900 TOTAL.

SO LET'S TALK ABOUT YOUR STORY IN THE SENSE OF YOU DECIDING TO WRITE THIS GATES OF GAZA.

I WAS ASKED TO BLUR.

IT IS A FANTASTIC BOOK.

YOU MERGED THE EVENTS AND THE TRAUMA OF OCTOBER 7th WITH THE TRAUMA AND THE HOPE THAT WENT INTO THE INCEPTION RIGHT THERE ON THE BORDER WITH GAZA, THE KIBUTZ.

LIVING SIDE BY SIDE WITH NEIGHBORS.

THERE WERE DAYS OF GREAT OPTIMISM OVER THE COURSE OF THOSE DECADES AND OBVIOUSLY, SORROW AS WELL.

WHY WAS IT IMPORTANT FOR YOU TO NOT ONLY WRITE A BOOK ABOUT THE TRAGEDY YOU AND YOUR FAMILY EXPERIENCED THAT DAY BUT THE BIGGER PICTURE OF THE PROJECT THAT IS THE KIBBUTZ THAT WERE BUILT ALONG THE BORDER OF GAZA?

>> WELL, WHEN I DECIDED TO WRITE ABOUT OCTOBER 7 AND IT TOOK ME SOME TIME, BUT WHEN I DECIDED TO WRITE ABOUT IT, I KNEW THAT I WANTED TO WRITE IT IN ENGLISH BECAUSE MY URGE AND PERHAPS MY MISSION WAS TO TELL THE WORLD WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

FROM OCTOBER 8th THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO DENIED AND MINIMIZED AND EVEN JUSTIFIED THE ATROCITY OF OCTOBER 7th AND I WANTED TO PUT OUT A STORY OF WHAT HAPPENED, THE STORY OF A FAMILY, OF A COMMUNITY.

AND PERHAPS OF A COUNTRY.

BUT, FROM A VERY PERSONAL AND COMMUNAL POINT OF VIEW.

BUT I REALIZE IF I WANT TO TELL THIS STORY TO AN INTERNATIONAL AUDIENCE AND THIS BOOK HAS BEEN PUBLISHED IN ENGLISH AND TRANSLATED INTO GERMAN AND FRENCH AND ITALIAN AND ROMANIAN AND OTHER LANGUAGES, I REALIZE IF I WANTED TO TELL THE WORLD ABOUT IT, I HAVE TO ALSO BRING THE HISTORY.

BECAUSE YOU CANNOT UNDERSTAND OCTOBER 7th WITHOUT UNDERSTANDING WHAT IS HAMAS, WHAT ARE THE KIBBUTZ, THE SMALL AGRICULTURAL COMMUNITIES ON THE BORDER.

YOU NEED TO LEARN THE HISTORY OF THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN ISRAEL AND GAZA, THE CONFLICT, THE DAYS OF OPTIMISM AND THE PEACE PROCESS, THE FAILURES, THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN NETANYAHU, THE PRIME MINISTER, AND HAMAS, BECAUSE FOR MANY YEARS HE HAD A POLICY OF STRENGTHENING HAMAS.

AND EVEN ASKING DIFFERENT COUNTRIES TO GIVE MONEY TO HAMAS.

SO ALL OF THAT IS PART OF THE STORY.

AND IF YOU WANT TO UNDERSTAND WHAT HAPPENED ON THAT DAY, THE HISTORY HAS TO BE A BIG PART OF THE STORY.

AND THE WAY I DID IT IN THE BOOK IS FOR EVERY CHAPTER OF OCTOBER 7th THERE IS A HISTORY CHAPTER.

AND THE HISTORY IS TOLD THROUGH THE PERSONAL STORIES OF MY NEIGHBORS.

IT IS NOT JUST KIND OF LIKE RUNNING THROUGH THE EVENTS BUT TELLING THE HISTORY THROUGH THE PERSONAL LIFE EXPERIENCE OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN LIVING ON THE BORDER THROUGH THE WARS, THROUGH THE PEACE DAYS.

THROUGH THE OPTIMISM AND THE PESSIMISM.

AND EXPLAINING THROUGH THEIR STORIES HOW WE GOT TO OCTOBER 7th.

>> I SEE THERE THAT YOU CURRENTLY ARE IN THE NORTH OF THE COUNTRY.

THE NORTHERN PART OF ISRAEL.

THE KIBBUTZ ARE ALL IN THE SOUTH.

AND I WONDER IF YOU ARE PLANNING AT SOME POINT TO GO BACK AND THE REASON I ASK SPECIFICALLY TODAY IS I JUST LISTENED TO AN INCREDIBLY POWERFUL INTERVIEW WITH A HOSTAGE RELEASED SEVERAL MONTHS AGO TO FIND OUT HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTERS WERE MURDERED ON OCTOBER 7th.

HE WAS TAKEN FROM KIBBUTZ BARI.

HE SAID THAT HE IS GRATEFUL THAT HIS WIFE AND DAUGHTERS WERE NOT BURIED THERE AND WHILE HE LOVED THE MEMORIES THEY FORMED THERE, THE NEXT CHAPTER OF HIS LIFE WILL NOT BE THERE.

WHERE WILL THE NEXT CHAPTER OF YOUR LIFE BE?

>> FIRST OF ALL, BAUDS YOU MENTIONED HIM, I HAVE TO SAY ELLIE HAS BEEN A HERO FOR MANY AROUND THE WORLD FOR HIS ADVOCACY, FOR THE HOSTAGES STILL HELD IN GAZA.

FOR HIS VERY IMPORTANT DEMAND THAT THERE WILL BE A COMMISSION OF INQUIRY TO INVESTIGATE THE FAILURES OF OCTOBER 7th.

SOMETHING THAT UNBELIEVABLY, THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT HAS REFUSED TO DO FOR TWO YEARS NOW.

AND HE FAMOUSLY SAID THAT PUTTING UP SUCH A COMMISSION TO INVESTIGATE THE FAILURES SO THAT WE CAN LEARN AND IMPROVE, IT IS NOT A LEFT WING ISSUE AND IT IS NOT A RIGHT WING ISSUE.

IT IS JUST ABOUT BEING STRAIGHT WITH THE PEOPLE.

SO JUST A WORD ABOUT ELI.

WE ARE PLANNING TO RETURN.

I HAVE BEEN TO THE HOUSE MANY, MANY TIMES SINCE OCTOBER 7.

I GO THERE EVERY WEEK BASICALLY.

WE RENOVATED THE HOUSE.

IT LOOKS COMPLETELY NEW.

WE, ALL THE BULLET HOLES, ALL THE BROKEN GLASS, EVERYTHING THAT WAS DONE TO OUR HOUSE, WE COMPLETELY TOOK CARE OF IT.

IT IS A BEAUTIFUL HOME.

WE ARE WAITING FOR THE WAR TO END BECAUSE IT IS VERY CLOSE TO GAZA.

AND, AT NIGHT AND DURING THE DAY, YOU HAVE MASSIVE EXPLOSIONS ALL THE TIME.

IT IS VERY TRAUMATIC.

IT IS NOT GOOD FOR OUR CHILDREN WHO LIVED THROUGH OCTOBER 7.

IT IS NOT GOOD FOR ANYBODY.

AND WE ARE PUSHING FOR THE WAR TO END.

FIRST OF ALL FOR THE HOSTAGES WHO NEED TO BE SAVED.

THEN FOR ANY PROSPECT OF PEACE IN THE FUTURE AND SO WE CAN GO BACK HOME.

BECAUSE THAT IS WHAT RIGHT NOW IS KEEPING US OUT OF OUR HOME AT THE MOMENT.

>> AND I WOULD IMAGINE WAITING FOR OUR FRIEND OMRI TO COME HOME AS WELL.

>> THAT IS NUMBER ONE.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

THE HOSTAGES.

>> AND HIS WIFE HAS BEEN TRAVELING.

I BELIEVE SHE IS IN THE U.S.

OR WAS IN THE U.S.

CONTINUING TO ADVOCATE FOR HIS RELEASE.

AND WE KNOW THE CONDITIONS THE HOSTAGES ARE BEING HELD IN RIGHT NOW IN TUNNELS.

BARELY ALIVE.

WE HAVE SEEN SOME OF THE HORRIFIC PROPAGANDA VIDEOS RELEASED BY HAMAS.

CAN ONLY IMAGINE THE TORTURE THEY ARE ENDURING AND I WOULD LIKE TO PLAY SOME SOUND FROM CHRISTIANE'S EARLIER INTERVIEW WITH A FORMER HOSTAGE WHO DESCRIBED SUFFOCATING UNDER SOME OF THOSE TUNNELS.

HERE IS WHAT SHE SAID TO CHRISTIANE AT THE TIME.

>> I HONESTLY CAN'T IMAGINE WHAT IT WOULD BE LIKE TO BE TRAPPED AND CAUGHT INTO A TUNNEL LIKE THAT SO FAR UNDERGROUND.

PROBABLY VERY LITTLE FRESH AIR.

VERY LITTLE ABILITY TO MOVE.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE FOR YOU?

DID YOU FEEL YOU WERE GOING TO SUFFOCATE?

WERE YOU FRIGHTENED OF THE TUNNELS?

>> WE WERE IN THE TUNNEL WHICH WAS ABOUT 40 METERS UNDERGROUND.

SO, OXYGEN WAS VERY LITTLE.

WE FELT LIKE WE WERE SUFFOCATING ALL THE TIME.

IT WAS REALLY HARD TO BREATHE.

THERE WAS A LOT OF ELDERLY PEOPLE WITH ME.

THEN IT HAD OTHER EFFECTS YOU KNOW.

IT WAS HARD FOR THEM TO BREATHE SOMEONE HAD ASTHMA WHICH MADE IT HARDER TO BREATHE.

THE SMELL IS TERRIBLE.

PEOPLE WERE WOUNDED WHEN THEY WERE TAKEN.

WHEN THEY WERE ABDUCTED FROM THE HOME.

SO, THE HEALING OF THE WOUNDS IN AN ENVIRONMENT WITHOUT ENOUGH OXYGEN, IT TOOK A LOT LONGER THAN IT NORMALLY TAKES.

>> AMIR, THAT INTERVIEW WAS OVER A YEAR AGO AND SHE HAD BEEN THANKFULLY RELEASED MONTHS PRIOR TO THAT.

SO ONE CAN ONLY IMAGINE WHAT THE EXPERIENCE IS LIKE FOR THE REMAINING HOSTAGES.

WE CANNOT SPEAK ENOUGH ABOUT THEM.

I WANT TO LEAVE THESE LAST FEW SECONDS FOR YOU TO TELL OUR VIEWERS AND THE WORLD WHY IT IS SO IMPORTANT FROM A HUMANITY STANDPOINT.

NOT ONLY TO BRING YOUR FRIEND HOME.

BUT TO BRING THEM ALL HOME.

>> THIS IS NOT AN ISRAELI ISSUE.

THIS IS A HUMANITARIAN ISSUE.

THIS IS AN ISSUE FOR THE WORLD.

FOR US ISRAELIS, IT IS THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

BUT IT IS REALLY AN ISSUE FOR HUMANITY AND I WANT TO URGE THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THE PRESIDENT, AND EVERYBODY WHO IS INVOLVED GET THESE NEGOTIATIONS DONE AND GET A DEAL.

SOME THINGS MAY HAVE TO BE AMENDED AND CHANGE, BUT DON'T LEAVE EGYPT WITHOUT AN AGREEMENT BECAUSE IF WE RENEW THE WAR AFTER ALREADY SECURING SOME KIND OF A PAUSE, I DON'T WANT TO IMAGINE WHAT WILL BE THE CONSEQUENCES SO DON'T LET ANYONE SABOTAGE THESE NEGOTIATIONS.

LET'S GET A DEAL THIS TIME.

IT'S URGENT.

WE HAVE TO DO IT.

>> YES WE DO, AMIR TABON, THANK YOU FOR EVERYTHING YOU HAVE BEEN DOING TO ADVOCATE FOR AN END TO THE WAR AND THE HOSTAGES.

MY BEST TO YOU AND YOUR FAMILY AND FATHER AND DAUGHTERS AND WIFE.

EVERYONE.

I APPRECIATE YOU TAKEING THE TIME TO JOIN US TODAY.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> FROM PALESTINIANS INSIDE GAZA, THE PAST TWO YEARS HAS BROUGHT AN UNPRECEDENTED LEVEL OF DEATH AND DESTRUCTION.

AS ISRAEL RESPONDED TO THE HAMAS ATTACKS OF OCTOBER 7th, WITH OVERWHELMING FORCE.

MORE THAN 67,000 PEOPLE ARE BELIEVED TO HAVE BEEN KILLED IN GAZA.

MANY MORE HAVE BEEN INJURED OR LACKING BASIC NECESSITIES.

SO AS NEGOTIATIONS CONTINUE IN EGYPT NOW, WHAT WOULD A CEASE FIRE MEAN FOR THE PEOPLE ON THE GROUND AND WHAT AID IS NEEDED NOW?

LET'S BRING IN JAMES ELDER WITH UNICEF WHO JOINS THE PROGRAM LIVE.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

I DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW MANY TIMES HAVE YOU BEEN TO GAZA SINCE OCTOBER 7th, 2023?

>> THIS IS MY SIXTH TIME SINCE THE HORRORS OF OCTOBER 7th.

>> YOUR SIXTH TIME.

YOU ARE IN HANYUNIS RIGHT NOW.

WE HAVE COVERED THE DEVASTATION THERE.

FOR YOU TO WALK US THROUGH AND EXPLAIN WHAT HAVE YOU SEEN THIS LATEST VISIT?

>> EVERYONE HAS GONE BEYOND ROCK BOTTOM.

I DON'T KNOW HOW PEOPLE CONTINUE RIGHT NOW.

THAT MIX BETWEEN THE IMMENSE PHYSICAL PAIN, HAVING LOST EVERYTHING.

EVERYTHING TAKEN AWAY FROM THEM AND THE PSYCHOLOGICAL TRAUMA.

TO TRY AND GIVE A SENSE OF THAT.

JUST THE FIRST HALF HOUR, MY FIRST HALF HOUR GOING BACK INTO A HOSPITAL, WHICH WAS IN THE MIDDLE AREA, FIRST HALF HOUR, I WAS IN A TENT OUTSIDE.

THERE WERE THREE LITTLE CHILDREN ALL WHO HAD BEEN SHOT BY COPTERS.

ONE OF THEM GETTING WATER, ONE OF THEM PLAYING.

ONE OF THEM GETTING WOOD.

NO CHILDREN ARE IN SCHOOL.

THOSE THREE CHILDREN SHOT ARE GOING TO THE HOSPITAL.

NO OTHER WAY TO EXPLAIN IT.

IT IS A WAR ZONE.

THERE ARE CHILDREN AND THE ELDERLY IN HOSPITAL CORRIDORS BLEEDING AND SCREAMING DESPITE HOSPITAL AND NURSES RUNNING 24 HOURS A DAY.

SPENDING THEIR NIGHTS IN TENTS.

THERE WAS A LITTLE BOY ON THE FLOOR WHO HAD BEEN SHOT.

HE HAD BEEN THERE FIVE HOURS.

FINALLY, THEY GOT HIM ONTO A STRETCHER.

THE DOCTORS PUT A YELLOW BLANKET ON THIS CHILD IF THEY ARE CRITICAL.

A BLUE ONE IF THEY WILL DIE WITHIN AN HOUR IF THEY DON'T GET HELP.

HE GOT TAKEN AWAY.

THEN A LITTLE GIRL CAME IN, A FIVE-YEAR-OLD GIRL WHO HAD JUST BEEN PULLED FROM THE RUBBLE WITH ALL THAT LOOK OF TERROR AND DUST AND ASH ON HER.

SHE WAS OKAY.

DOCTORS WORKED OUT NO INTERNAL INJURIES BUT NO ONE HAD YET TOLD HER THAT HER MOM AND HER DAD HAD BEEN, HER MOM AND SISTER RATHER HAD BEEN KILLED IN THE ATTACK.

THEN, WITHIN HALF AN HOUR, I GO INTO THE ICU, THERE IS A LITTLE SIX-YEAR-OLD GIRL, I AM NOTICING HER BECAUSE SHE HAS THESE BEAUTIFUL BULBS.

SHE IS IN A CRITICAL CONDITION AS THE DOCTOR IS EXPLAINING HER SITUATION.

SHE DIES IN FRONT OF US 30 MINUTES IN GAZA.

THAT IS NOT AN IRREGULAR 30 MINUTES.

THAT IS JUST ANY 30 MINUTES HERE AS IT HAS BEEN TWO YEARS.

>> AND NOW AS THE WORLD IS FOCUSED ON THIS WAR HOPEFULLY COMING TO AN END, THIS 20-POINT PLAN THE PRESIDENT HAS PRESENTED THAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU HAS SIGNED OFF ON, THAT THE HAMAS APPEARS TO HAVE SIGNED OFF ON AS WELL.

BUT WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR NEGOTIATORS TO WORK OUT THE FINAL POINTS.

WHAT ARE YOU HEARING FROM PALESTINIANS ON THE GROUND ABOUT HOW HOPEFUL PERHAPS THEY ARE THAT THIS TIME WILL ACTUALLY BE THE END OF THE WAR?

HOW MUCH ARE THEY AWARE OF WHAT'S GOING ON?

EGYPT?

>> VERY AWARE.

THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST LITERATE SOCIETIES ON THE PLANET.

EDUCATION HAS BEEN A BEDROCK FOR PALESTINIANS.

THE REASON THEY HAVE CONSISTENTLY RECOVERED FROM ATROCITIES.

THEY ARE VERY SAVVY.

THEY SAW MANY OF THE CEASE FIRE AGREEMENTS THEY CAME TO LEARN FOR SIMILAR CHARADES.

THERE'S A LOT OF HOPE.

BUT MANY PARENTS HAVE LOST THE ABILITY TO FEED AND CARE FOR THEIR CHILD.

IT IS A DARK MOMENT WHEN THEY LOOK IN THEIR PARENTS LIVES AND REALIZE THEY CAN NO LONGER PROTECT ME OR THEY HAVE LOST THE ABILITY TO GIVE THEIR CHILD TWO SQUARE MEALS A DAY.

THEY HAVE HAD THEIR DIGNITY TAKEN FROM THEM.

HOPE IS ALL THEY HAVE LEFT.

BUT THEY NEED TO SEE CONCRETE CHANGE ON THE GROUND.

RIGHT NOW, WE ARE NOT SEEING THAT.

WE ARE NOT SEEING A NOTICEABLE DECLINE IN MILITARY ACTION.

WE ARE SEEING CHILDREN KILLED STILL EVERY DAY SINCE SATURDAY IN THOSE STATEMENTS.

WHERE I AM, THERE HAS BEEN HEAVY MILITARY ACTIVITY ALL DAY TODAY.

IN THE NORTH, IT IS UNCHANGED.

I'M TRYING TO GET AID ACROSS.

UNICEF, WE ARE LUCKY.

WE DON'T JUST DO SUPPLY AID.

WE DO EDUCATION.

WE DO TRAUMA.

WE DO A LOT OF CASH ASSISTANCE.

IT'S A GAME CHANGER BUT WE ALSO HAVE A SOCIETY WHERE ONE-THIRD OF ALL WOMEN GIVING BIRTH TO PREMATURE OR UNDERWEIGHT BABIES AND WE TRIED FIVE TIMES NOW TO GET INCUBATORS FROM HOSPITALS IN THE NORTH THAT HAVE BEEN EVACUATED TO OTHER AREAS.

ISRAELI OFFICIALS HAVE DENIED THAT FIVE TIMES.

I'M LOOKING AT BABIES DOWN HERE IN THE SOUTH WHERE THERE'S THREE PREMATURE BABIES ON A BED JUST TRYING TO GET INCUBATORS AND THEY HAVE BEEN DENIED COMING INTO THE GAZA STRIP SINCE MARCH 24th.

PEOPLE NEED TO SEE THAT CHANGE.

BUT YEAH.

THEY ARE HOLDING ONTO HOPE.

IT'S ALL THEY'VE GOT.

>> ESPECIALLY PRESSURE FROM THE WEST, AFTER THAT BLOCKADE, ISRAEL STARTED ALLOWING MORE SUPPLIES TO COME IN.

BUT OBVIOUSLY, THIS 20-POINT PLAN WOULD SEE AN END TO THE FIGHTING AND A FLOOD OF HUMANITARIAN AID RUSH THROUGH.

WE TALK ABOUT HOW CHAOTIC THINGS ARE ON THE GROUND WITHOUT MUCH ORDER.

I KNOW THAT UNICEF AID TRUCK WAS ROBBED AT GUNPOINT IN GAZA CITY.

ABOUT TWO WEEKS AGO, JUST TALK TO US ABOUT THE DIFFICULTY.

AGAIN, WITH HAMAS.

STILL I WOULD IMAGINE, THE RULING AUTHORITY THERE AS WEAKENED AS THEY ARE.

NO ONE TO REPLACE THEM.

HOW DIFFICULT IT IS FOR AID ORGANIZATIONS LIKE YOURS TO BRING IN WHATEVER YOU CAN WITHOUT THE CONCERN OF BEING INJURED, HURT, AND ROBBED YOURSELF.

>> IT IS A VERY DANGEROUS PLACE TO WORK.

YOU HAVE MULTIPLE CHALLENGES HERE.

YOU HAVE MORE U.N.

WORKER HAVES BEEN KILLED HERE BY ISRAELI BOMBARDMENTS THAN ANY WAR SINCE WORLD WAR II.

YOU HAVE OBSTRUCTION OF AID COMING INTO THE GAZA STRIP.

EVEN WHEN WE GET AID IN, THE DAMAGE IS BEING DONE.

YOU DON'T SUDDENLY TURN AROUND.

YOU HAVE SUCH AN IMMENSE NUMBER OF MALNOURISHED BABIES AND MOMS.

WHEN GETTING AID IN, INSTEAD OF BEING ALLOWED.

WHEN YOU HAVE ECONOMICS OF SCARCITY, YOU GET LOOTINGMENT DURING THE CEASE FIRE WHEN AID WAS ALLOWED TO FLOW.

THERE WAS NO BLACK MARKET BECAUSE THERE WAS FOOD AND MEDICINE AND HYGIENE KITS AND SOAP IN THE MARKET.

WITHOUT THAT, WHEN WE ARE ONLY ALLOWED ONE ROUTE, IT'S LIKE THE SYSTEM IS BEING CREATED FOR LOOTING AND SO ON.

AND I DON'T KNOW.

WE DON'T QUITE KNOW WHO CONTROLS.

CERTAINLY, THERE HAS BEEN AN EFFORT TO ALMOST CREATE CHAOS HERE SO NO ONE IS QUITE SURE WHO IS IN CONTROL.

CERTAINLY BRAVE COLLEAGUES ARE TRYING TO GET AID ACROSS THE GAZA STRIP AND WE KNOW WHAT WORKS.

GIVE US MULTIPLE ENTRY POINTS.

FOUR OR FIVE ACROSS ISRAEL.

ALLOW AID TO FLOW.

WHEN WE ARE IN, ABIDE BY INTERNATIONAL HUMANITARIAN LAW.

LET ISRAEL FACILITATE US.

THAT'S WHAT WE DO.

THAT'S WHEN WE CHANGE THE GAME AND SEE ALL THE INDICATERS YOU WANT.

MALNUTRITION TO GO DOWN.

ACCESS TO GO UP.

CEASE FIRE.

IT'S THE GAME AS WE HEARD FROM YOUR LAST GUEST.

YOU KNOW.

DURING CEASE FIRES, WE HAVE HAD MORE THAN 150 HOSTAGES GO HOME.

IN THAT ABHORRENCE.

GO BACK TO THEIR LOVED ONES.

IT HAS BEEN LESS THAN TEN.

CEASE FIRES.

IT IS NOT AS COMPLICATED AS LEADERS MAKE OUT.

>> YEAH AND EVERYONE CAN AGREE THAT ONCE THIS IS ALL OVER, THE NEW LEADERSHIP WILL BE THERE HELPING TO GOVERN THE DAYS AND WEEKS AHEAD AS THE ROAD TO REBUILDING IS GOING TO TAKE A LONG, LONG TIME.

JAMES ELDER, THANK YOU SO MUCH, REALLY APPRECIATE THE TIME.

>>> WELL, IF THE FIGHTING ENDS WHERE DO WE GO FROM HERE?

THE TRAUMA AND VIOLENCE OF OCTOBER 7th AND THE OVERWHELMING FORCE OF ISRAEL'S RESPONSE INCLUDING EXTENSIVE ALLEGATIONS OF WAR CRIMES MAKES IT HARD TO SEE ANY LIGHT AMID THE DARKNESS.

ONE PERSON WHO IS URGING US NOT TO ABANDON OUR HUMANITY IS PALESTINIAN PEACE ACTIVIST AZIZ ABUSERA.

HE JOINS ME FROM THE PROGRAM AGAIN.

AZIZ, I REMEMBER OUR CONVERSATION AS IF IT WERE YESTERDAY.

IT WAS A LITTLE OVER A YEAR AGO THE LAST TIME YOU AND I SPOKE ALONGSIDE YOUR FRIEND FROM ISRAEL.

IT WAS A VERY EMOTIONAL AND PASSIONATE CONVERSATION AND YET HERE WE ARE STILL WAITING FOR THIS TERRIBLE WAR AND THE TRAUMA AFTER OCTOBER 7th TO FINALLY BEGIN TO END WHERE PEOPLE CAN TRULY HEAL AND YOU ARE AN IMPORTANT VOICE TO HEAR FROM, YOU FIRST LEARNED THE MEANING OF REVENGE AFTER YOUR BROTHER WAS KILLED DURING THE FIRST SHOT FIRED BY ISRAELI SOLDIERS AND YOU SPENT YEARS THEN WANTING TO HURT BACK.

THEN YOU CHANGED AND YOU HAVE BEEN SENDING A VERY DIFFERENT MESSAGE.

FOR THOSE WHO DIDN'T HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO HEAR THAT MESSAGE FROM YOU WHEN WE SPOKE, IT IS NOW TWO YEARS SINCE OCTOBER 7th, CAN YOU SHARE THAT MESSAGE?

>> THANK YOU, MY BROTHER WAS KILLED WHEN I WAS TEN YEARS OLD.

HE WAS ACTUALLY TORTURED IN ISRAELI PRISON.

AND, SO I GREW UP VERY ANGRY AND BITTER.

AS YOU IMAGINE A TEN-YEAR-OLD SEEING HIS BROTHER KILLED, THE ONLY THOUGHT I HAD IN MY MIND WAS REVENGE.

BUT I REALIZED WHEN I WAS 1 YEARS OLD, EVERY TIME I CHOSE VENGEANCE, I WAS A SLAVE TO THE PERSON WHO KILLED MY BROTHER AND I WANTED TO BE FREE FROM THAT PERSON.

WHAT I DO IS NOT A REACTION TO WHAT THEY DID.

IT IS UP TO ME TO CHANGE AND SHAPE THE FUTURE AND NOT BE DOOMED AND CONTROLLED BY THE ACTIONS OF THOSE WHO KILLED MY BROTHER.

SINCE THEN, THAT HAS BEEN MY WORK.

THAT DIGNITY AND PEACE ARE THE VALUES WE TRY TO PRIORITIZE IN PALESTINE AND ISRAEL AND WORKING EXACTLY FOR THOSE VALUES INCLUDING.

WHERE THE TWO OF US, HIS PARENTS WERE KILLED ON OCTOBER 7th AND THE TWO OF US HAVE COME TOGETHER.

WE ARE TWO PEOPLE WHO LOST OUR LOVED ONES AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT THERE IS NO FUTURE WITH BOMBS AND KILLINGS AND NO FUTURE WITH HURTING ONE ANOTHER.

AND UNFORTUNATELY, SINCE LAST YEAR, WITH HIGHWAY HAVE SEEN IS WORSE THAN WE COULD EVER IMAGINE.

I WAS LISTENING TO THE INTERVIEW EARLIER.

I HAVE SO MANY FRIENDS WHO HAVE LOST THEIR ENTIRE FAMILY.

SO MANY FRIENDS WHO HAVE NO HOMES TO GO BACK TO.

AND THIS IS THE REALITY WE LIVE IN TODAY THAT DOESN'T CREATE A MORE PEACEFUL TOMORROW.

>> YOU SAID WITH MOST, WHEN YOU WERE ON WITH HIM LAST YEAR, AND AGAIN, TWO MEN WHO HAVE BOTH SUFFERS TREMENDOUS LOSS, YOU LOSING YOUR BROTHER, MOSE LOSING HIS PARENTS ON OCTOBER 7th.

AND STANDING TOGETHER AND CHOOSING RECONCILIATION OVER REVENGE.

YOU SAID TO ME, THEN, WE MUST NOT WAIT FOR THE WAR TO END TO TRY TO BUILD PEACE.

AND I KNOW YOU SAID THAT JOURNEY TO FOLLOW THROUGH ON THOSE POWERFUL WORDS HAS BEEN EVEN MORE DIFFICULT OVER THIS PAST YEAR.

BUT I WOULD LIKE TO THINK THAT YOU ARE STILL ON THAT PATH AND IF SO.

>> ABSOLUTELY.

>> TELL OUR VIEWERS WHAT CONTINUES TO GIVE YOU STRENGTH AND HUMANITY TODAY.

>> LOOK, WAR IS THE ABSENCE OF PEACE.

WAR IS THE ABSENCE OF JUSTICE AND WE UNDERSTAND THAT THE ONLY WAY TO CHANGE REALITY IS BY CREATING JUSTICE AND CREATING PEACE.

AND, ACTUALLY, BOTH IN THE QURAN AND THE BIBLE, IT TALKS ABOUT PURSUING JUSTICE AND PEACE.

THESE ARE TWO MAIN ELEMENTS WE MUST DO AND WE CAN'T LEAVE THOSE THINGS TO POLITICIANS.

IF WE LEAVE IT ONLY UP TO POLITICIANS WE WILL NOT HAVE PEACE AND JUSTICE SO IT MUST BE US AND THE PEOPLE GOING UP IN THE STREETS AND MEETING WITH EACH OTHER.

WORKING TOGETHER AND MAKING SURE THAT OUR COMMUNITIES, OUR PEOPLES ARE PRESSURING OUR POLITICIANS, MAKING SURE THAT OUR INVESTMENTS, THAT OUR ACTIONS, THAT OUR POLICIES ARE ONES THAT CREATE PEACE.

WE CANNOT INVEST IN WAR AND EXPECT PEACE.

MARTIN LUTHER KING JR.

SAID WARS ARE POOR CHISELS FOR CARVING OUT PEACEFUL TOMORROWS.

THAT IS EXACTLY WHAT GIVES ME HOPE IS THAT WE COMING TOGETHER, WE SAY HOPE IS AN ACTION.

AND BY COMING TOGETHER, BY WORKING TOGETHER, BY BELIEVING IN A BETTER TOMORROW AND BY DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN OURSELVES, THAT IS HOW YOU CREATE HOPE.

YOU DON'T DO IT BY DOOM SCROLLING IN YOUR HOME.

AND INSTAGRAM.

AND SEEING A LOT OF HORRIBLE THINGS AND DO NOTHING ABOUT IT.

BY GOING OUT, BY WORKING TOGETHER.

THAT IS HOW WE MAKE PEACE AND GET HOPE.

>> WE JUST SHOWED VIDEOS OF YOU MEETING WITH POPE FRANCIS.

TRAVELING THE WORLD.

SPREADING THIS MESSAGE.

YOU SAID TO ME AT THE TIME OUR POLITICIANS HAVE LOST THEIR IMAGINATION.

SO QUICKLY, I WOULD LIKE TO GET AN HONEST ASSESSMENT FROM YOU ON HOW YOU VIEW THIS 20-POINT PEACE PLAN BEING NEGOTIATED.

IT SEEMS TO BE THE LAST BEST HOPE FOR A CEASE FIRE AND THE RETURN OF THE HOSTAGES.

IT CALLS FOR NEW JOINT AUTHORITY IN GAZA.

YOUR VIEW ON THIS PROPOSAL?

>> ANYTHING THAT CAN STOP THE KILLING IS SOMETHING I WELCOME.

MOST PALESTINIANS, INTERNATIONAL LAWYERS, AND SO ON.

I KNOW.

LOOK AT WHAT'S HAPPENING AND DESCRIBE IT AS A GENOCIDE.

IT IS HORRIFIC.

SO EVERYTHING THAT CAN BRING PEACE, THAT CAN GET PEOPLE OUT OF CAPTIVITY AND BRING QUIET, THAT IS GOOD.

HOWEVER, THE 20-PIECE PLAN DOES NOT FULLY SOLVE THE PROBLEM.

IT IS A BAND AID.

IT IS GOOD FOR A CEASE FIRE.

THE PROBLEM WE HAVE HAD WITH FORMER AGREEMENTS AND PRIOR AGREEMENTS IS EVERYONE TRIES TO DO THIS BAND AID.

LET'S STOP THE ISSUE RIGHT NOW.

FIX THE PROBLEM RIGHT NOW BUT NOT REALLY DEAL WITH THE ISSUES AND NOT HAVE A LASTING JUST PEACE BETWEEN ISRAELIS AND PALESTINIANS.

AS LONG AS WE CONTINUE TO JUST DO A MORE CEASE FIRE AGREEMENT, WE WILL END UP WHERE WE ARE TODAY.

IN FIVE, TEN, 20 YEARS.

LOOK, I HAVE LOST MY BROTHER.

I LOST MANY OTHER PEOPLE ALSO IN MY FAMILY AND FRIENDS THIS HAPPENS BECAUSE WE CONTINUE TO PUSH THE BALL AND SAY WE CAN'T RIGHT NOW REACH A FULL AGREEMENT.

SO LET'S PUSH IT TO THE NEXT GENERATION.

I SAY IT IS CRIMINAL OF US TO SAY LET'S PUSH IT TO THE NEXT GENERATION.

I DON'T WANT MY NIECES AND CHILDREN TO DEAL WITH OUR FAILURES.

>> THE FOCUS SHOULD BE ON ENDING THE WAR AND BRINGING THE HOSTAGES HOME AND TRYING TO GET SOME SEMBLANCE OF PEACE TO THE REGION.

AZIZ, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> WE WISH MOSE COULD BE HERE TO GIVE YOU A BEAUTIFUL HUG.

>> I WAS WITH HIM LAST WEEK AND I WILL WITH WITH HIM AGAIN NEXT WEEK.

>> GIVE HIM OUR BEST.

>>> AND NOW, THE RECENT ANNOUNCEMENT BY PRESIDENT TRUMP AND HIS HEALTH SECRETARY ON AUTISM PLACES HARMFUL BURDENS ON PARENTS AND CHILDREN WITH THE DISORDER OUR NEXT GUEST SAYS.

TRUMP AND ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

CLAIMED WITHOUT SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE A LINK BETWEEN AUTISM AND TYLENOL USED DURING PREGNANCY.

>> THANKS.

TAYLOR HARRIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> OF COURSE.

THANK SOS MUCH FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU ARE A WRITER, A MOM, A WIFE.

YOU HAVE BEEN IN ALL THESE LITERARY MAGAZINES BUT I THINK MANY PEOPLE WILL KNOW YOU FROM YOUR MEMOIR, THIS BOY WE MADE, WHERE YOU CHRONICLED YOUR SEARCH TO UNDERSTAND YOUR SON'S MEDICAL CONDITION WHILE ALSO KIND OF REFLECTING ON HOW THIS ALL PLAYS OUT WITH RACE, WITH CLASS, WITH MOTHER HOOD.

FOR PEOPLE UNFAMILIAR WITH YOUR STORY, START WHERE YOU STARTED.

WHAT IS IT THAT CAUSED YOU TO UNDERSTAND THERE WAS SOMETHING ABOUT YOUR BOY THAT YOU DIDN'T UNDERSTAND?

>> THAT IS SO HARD.

I I WOULD SAY THE BOOK STARTS WITH THIS MORNING I WILL NEVER FORGET.

IT WAS APRIL FOOL'S DAY ACTUALLY.

I REMEMBER THINKING TO MYSELF I WISH THIS WEREN'T A JOKE, BUT MY SON CHRISTOPHER WE CALLED TOKES IN THE BOOK AND IN REAL LIFE, HE JUST WOKE UP AND HE SORT OF JUST STARING.

HE DOESN'T SAY ANYTHING.

HE IS ALMOST TWO YEARS OLD.

AND HE JUST DOESN'T LOOK LIKE HIMSELF.

AND YOU HAVE THAT MOMENT I THINK AS A PARENT, AS THOSE WHO MOTHER, WAIT, AM I OVERREACTING?

YOU ARE SECOND GUESSING YOURSELF.

SHOULD I CALL THE DOCTOR?

I DO.

AND WE MAKE AN APPOINTMENT.

LONG STORY SHORT, WE FIND OUT THAT HIS BLOOD GLUCOSE LEVEL WAS A 27.

AND A LOW NORMAL FOR YOU AND I MIGHT BE SOMETHING LIKE 70 OR 80.

WE RUSHED HIM TO THE HOSPITAL.

THEY KEEP HIM OVERNIGHT.

THEY SEND OUT LABS TO THE MAYO CLINIC AND WHAT WE EXPECTED WAS TO HEAR SOMETHING LIKE OKAY, NO BIG DEAL.

YOU CAN MANAGE THIS WITH A SNACK AT BEDTIME.

HE WILL OUT GROW IT.

THOSE LABS YOU KNOW.

THEY WERE FINE.

WE GET THOSE LABS BACK AND IT IS JUST LIKE NO.

THERE ARE THESE OTHER LEVELS THAT ARE WAY OFF.

THE PICTURE I GET IN MY HEAD OF JUST THE MAGICIAN PULLING THE SCARVES OUT OF THE HAT.

IT FELT LIKE EVERY NEW TEST WOULD BE LIKE UH, IT'S NOT THAT BUT THIS ISN'T COMPLETELY WITHIN THE REALM OF TYPICAL.

AND I'M OKAY SPOILING MY OWN BOOK IN THAT WE DON'T FIND A NEAT ENDING.

I THINK YOU KNOW, AS WRITERS, YOU SORT OF WANT TO KNOW IS THIS THE RIGHT ENDING?

BUT WE DON'T GET THAT ONE LABEL THAT I SET OUT TO LOOK FOR THAT I THOUGHT WOULD GIVE ME ALL THE ANSWERS.

>> SO HOW MANY KIDS DO YOU HAVE AND HOW OLD ARE THEY?

>> I HAVE THREE AND THEY ARE 14, 13, AND NINE.

>> KNOWING WHAT YOU KNOW NOW, PARTICULARLY ABOUT AUTISM, BECAUSE TWO OF YOUR KIDS HAVE AUTISM DIAGNOSES.

IS THAT THE WAY IT IS FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE?

OR IS IT DIFFERENT NOW SINCE YOUR KIDS ARE A LITTLE OLDER NOW?

>> I SPENT A LOT OF TIME THINKING OKAY, MICHELLE, WHY DID I FEEL LIKE I COULD FIND THE ONE ANSWER?

WHAT WAS IT ABOUT MY UPBRINGING?

I WAS RAISED IN THE 80s , A MIDWESTERN GIRL.

I GOT A LOT OF STREP THROAT AND IT WAS LIKE YOU GET SICK.

YOU GO TO DOCTOR.

DOCTOR GIVES YOU PINK LIQUID.

YOU FEEL BETTER AND I COULD EVEN SAY EVEN AS I GREW UP, GOT A LITTLE OLDER, STARTED HAVING PANIC ATTACKS.

HAD A DIFFICULT TIME THOUGH I WAS AN A PLUS STUDENT, CLASS PRESIDENT.

IT WAS THEN OKAY.

LIKE, MY PARENTS WERE EXCELLENT.

AND THEY WERE LIKE WE WILL TAKE YOU, YOU WILL GET THERAPY AND MEDICATION AND COGNITIVE BEHAVIORAL THERAPY.

IT STILL FELT THE TOME LIKE THOUGH I KNEW I WOULD BE LIVING WITH ANXIETY, THAT THERE WAS SORT OF AN ANSWER OR A WAY TO GET AT IT OR COPE.

I THINK SOME OF THAT IS TRUE.

BUT AUTISM FOR ME HAS BEEN SO DIFFICULT BECAUSE OF HOW IT CAN LOOK IN KIDS LIKE MINE AND IN MYSELF.

AND SO, YOU HAVE KIDS WHO ARE AFRICAN AMERICAN, THEY ARE HIGH MASKING, THEY ARE GOING TO COME INTO YOUR OFFICE.

MY DAUGHTER IS A HUGE FAN, TELL HER I LOVE HER.

SHE IS THIS GORGEOUS KID, ATHLETIC.

WHAT IS ACTUALLY HARDER FOR ME WITH RAISING AUTISTIC KIDS HAS BEEN GETTING OTHERS TO BELIEVE THAT IT IS ACTUALLY REALLY HARD WITH WHAT THEY DON'T SEE.

I TOOK MY DAUGHTER TO ONE APPOINTMENT AND I WASN'T ASKING THIS DOCTOR FOR A DIAGNOSIS.

I SAID WE GOT A DIAGNOSIS OF AUTISM AND HE LOOKED AT HER AND SAID YOU ARE NOT AUTISTIC.

IF YOU WERE AUTISTIC YOWLEDN'T BE ABLE TO ASK FOR A GLASS OF WATER AND SHE JUST SHUTS DOWN AND SHE IS THINKING I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO THINK OF THIS.

>> THAT'S PART OF THE PROBLEM HERE IS THAT AUTISM PRESENTS IN A WIDE VARIETY OF WAYS AND HERE IS A MEDICAL PROFESSIONAL WHO DOESN'T SEEM TO KNOW THAT.

>> RIGHT.

THERE IS SO MUCH MORE WE NEED TO KNOW.

PEOPLE LIKE ME ARE DRAWN TO SOCIAL MEDIA BECAUSE SOME OF THE LATEST INFORMATION ABOUT WHAT AUTISM CAN LOOK LIKE IS OFTEN LIKE ANECDOTAL.

IT IS SOMEONE SAYING OH MY GOSH.

I FELT LIKE SOMETHING WAS OFF.

AND HERE, NOW I HAVE THIS DIAGNOSIS AND NOW I HAVE UNDERSTANDING AND I CAN START TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO LIVE IN THE WORLD.

>> CAN YOU STEP BACK?

AS BEST AS YOU CAN, HOW WOULD YOU DESCRIBE WHAT AUTISM IS?

>> YES.

I WOULD SAY DEFINITELY NOT A DISEASE.

IT IS HELPFUL TO LOOK AT SOMETHING LIKE DSM5.

IT IS OFTEN USED TO DIAGNOSE AND SO, SOMETHING LIKE A NEURODEVELOPMENTAL CONDITION.

IF YOU READ STEVE SILVERMAN'S BOOK, PART OF IT THIS NATURAL EVOLUTION OF HUMAN MIND AND BRAIN.

WHAT HAS BEEN DIFFICULT LATELY IS I'M OKAY WITH A FEW WAYS OF DESCRIBING IT AND WILL CONTINUE TO LEARN MORE BUT I THINK AS A BURDEN.

AN EPIDEMIC, A DISEASE THAT NEED TO BE ERADICATED.

THAT IS COMPLETELY DIFFERENT.

THERE ARE A THOUSAND GENES MARKED FOR AUTISM SO I JUST WANT TO BE VERY CAREFUL THAT THIS CAN ALL FALL UNDER GENETICS IN SOME WAYS BUT I SEE IT VERY DIFFERENTLY THAN THE WAY WE HEAR THE ADMINISTRATION TALKING ABOUT IT.

>> SO, THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS CHARACTERIZED AUTISM IN SOME VERY DIRE WAYS.

THE HEALTH SECRETARY HAS DESCRIBED IT AS SOMETHING THAT BASICALLY IS DEVASTATING TO PEOPLE.

THE PEOPLE WHO LIVE WITH AUTISM WILL NEVER GO ON A DATE.

OR NEVER HAVE A JOB.

I WANTED TO ASK FIRST OF ALL, HOW DID YOU REACT TO THAT WHEN YOU HEARD THAT?

>> THERE ARE TWO REACTIONS.

ONE IS, IT IS ALMOST LAUGHABLE.

IT IS ALMOST A SPECTACLE.

THEN I HAVE TO TAKE IT SOMEWHAT SERIOUSLY.

ESPECIALLY BECAUSE THIS IS ABOUT SOMEONE WHO HAS IDEAS THAT ARE NOT ACCURATE BUT ALSO HAS POWER.

THIS IS WHERE I GO BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN WHAT DO I SPEND MY TIME ON.

SO I DID WANT TO TALK TO MY KIDS ABOUT IT.

I DON'T THINK IT IS TRUE OBVIOUSLY.

I THINK THAT THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO HAVE SORT OF HIGHER SUPPORT NEEDS MAYBE THAN I DO OR MY KIDS DO.

WE OFTEN TALK ABOUT AUTISM AS A SPECTRUM.

I THINK PEOPLE THINK IT MAKES YOUR LIFE MORE OR LESS AUTISTIC.

I LIKE THE IDEA OF IT BEING A CONSTELLATION.

THERE ARE ALL THESE DIFFERENT PARTS OF IT AND SOME, WE ALL HAVE DIFFERENT SORT OF STRENGTHS OR CHALLENGES WITH IT.

SO IT IS NOT NECESSARILY OH MY KIDS DON'T LIVE OVER HERE AND THESE PEOPLE ARE WAY OVER HERE.

THERE IS A WAY IN WHICH I COULD APPRECIATE RFK JR.

IF I FELT LIKE, YOU KNOW WHAT?

MAYBE HE WENT ON ONE OF THOSE LISTENING TOURS AND TALKED TO PARENTS OF KIDS WITH HIGH SUPPORT NEEDS AND WHAT HE IS TRYING TO DO IS SAY HEY, LET'S NOT FORGET ABOUT THESE FAMILIES.

LET'S PUT SOME FUNDING INTO GETTING THEM THE CARE.

THAT THEY NEED.

BUT WE ARE LOOKING AT MEDICAID CUTS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

IT JUST DOESN'T JIVE.

THE MATH ISN'T MATING SO WHAT AM I FORCED TO SAY IS LIKE OH, WHAT'S AT STAKE FOR ME AND HIM AND RFK JR.

HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT VACCINES CAUSING AUTISM FOR 20 YEARS SO IS THERE A PLACE TO TALK ABOUT HOW HARD IT CAN BE TO BE AUTISTIC IN THIS WORLD?

ABSOLUTELY.

LIKE, I WILL HAVE THAT CONVERSATION ALL DAY.

I DON'T THINK AT ALL, THAT THAT IS WHAT IS HAPPENING.

AND SO I TALK TO MY KIDS ABOUT IT BECAUSE I DON'T WANT THEM HEARING CLIPS AND SECOND GUESSING WHO THEY ARE.

AND THEIR RESPONSE, THEY SHE ACTUALLY PRAYED LORD, IF SOMEONE WHO WAS AUTISTIC HEARD THOSE WORDS FROM RFK, LIKE I PRAY THAT THEY DON'T BELIEVE THEM AND DON'T FEEL BAD ABOUT THEMSELVES.

>> WHAT ARE SOME OF THE WAYS THAT AUTISM PRESENTS?

THAT PERHAPS PEOPLE DON'T UNDERSTAND?

>> ONE OF THE SORT OF STATISTICS THAT I LOVE.

THINKING ABOUT THAT IS ALSO DIFFICULT, CAN BE THERE IS RESEARCH THAT SOMETHING LIKE THE AUTISTIC BRAIN TAKES IN AND PROCESSES 42% MORE INFORMATION AT REST.

I'M NOT SAYING THAT IS FOR EVERY AUTISTIC PERSON.

FOR ME IT FEELS VERY RESONANT FOR MY EXPERIENCE.

THAT IS HOW MY KIDS ARE, TOO.

WHEN THEY ARE VERY LITTLE IT CAN LOOK LIKE SHYNESS.

IT CAN LOOK LIKE THE REPORT CARD MIGHT SAY SHY.

BUT, YOU KNOW, A GOOD, FOLLOWS THE RULES OR A JOY TO HAVE IN CLASS.

AND IT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE SORT OF TAKING IN EVERYTHING AND TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, OKAY.

WHAT IS THE BEST WAY FOR ME TO SORT OF CALM MY NERVOUS SYSTEM?

THEY DON'T HAVE THOSE WORDS AT THREE.

RIGHT?

BUT SORT OF WHAT'S THE BEST WAY FOR ME TO EXIST IN THE WORLD?

GIVEN WHERE I AM?

AND SO FOR, YOU KNOW, ME AND MY KIDS, THAT OFTEN LOOKS LIKE BEING VERY QUIET.

DOING AS YOU ARE TOLD.

AND SORT OF LIKE GETTING OUT OF THE ENVIRONMENT AS SOON AS POSSIBLE TO GET BACK HOME OR TO A SAFE PLACE.

WE HAVE FRIENDS, WE LIKE TO GET OUT.

AND A LOT OF BEING AUTISTIC IS JUST TRYING TO UNDERSTAND WHY DO I FEEL ANXIOUS AND ON EDGE SOMETIMES AND CURIOUS ABOUT OTHER THINGS THAT PEOPLE BRUSH OFF OR DON'T SPEND TIME BEING CURIOUS ABOUT.

>> WHAT ABOUT PEOPLE WITH HIGH SUPPORT NEEDS?

WHAT IS IT BECAUSE THAT SEEMS TO BE WHAT RFK JR.

WAS TALKING ABOUT.

HOW DOES THAT TEND TO PRESENT?

>> I DON'T WANT TO SAY TOO MUCH JUST BECAUSE MY KIDS ARE HIGH MASKING SO YOU CAN IMAGINE ESPECIALLY AS A BLACK MOM, I WORRY ABOUT MY KIDS BEING OUT THERE.

AND BEING SEEN.

SEEN A CERTAIN WAY.

COMING BACK TO RFK'S WORDS THAT IS HARD.

SO I WON'T SPEAK FOR THE HIGH SUPPORT NEEDS BUT I CAN SAY THAT MY GUESS WOULD BE SOMETHING LIKE EXHAUSTION.

CARE TAKING BEYOND WHAT YOU FEEL CAPABLE OF.

IF YOU ARE LIKE ME, YOU HAVE YOUR OWN LIMITS OR FEELING LIKE THERE IS NO BOOK ON THIS.

I READ THE BABY BOOKS.

HOW TO HAVE SCREEN TIME LIMITS.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS SHIFT WITH NEURODIVERGENT KIDS AND THERE IS SO MUCH MORE FOR US TO LEARN.

THAT IS WHY IT IS HARD.

THAT I FEEL LIKE WE WILL TAKE RESOURCES FROM WHAT COULD BE REALLY HELPFUL TO GIVE PARENTS A BREAK IF THEY NEED IT.

TO GET THOSE KIDS ACCESS TO EDUCATION.

OR LANGUAGE.

WHATEVER IT IS.

AND IT IS JUST NOT, I DON'T THINK WE ARE MOVING IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION THERE.

>> THE PRESIDENT ANNOUNCED LABEL CHANGES.

DISCOURAGING TYLENOL, SUGGESTING A LINK TO AUTISM.

AND SAYING PEOPLE SHOULDN'T USE TYLENOL.

>> PART OF IT FELT VERY MUCH LIKE WATCHING A PERFORMANCE.

WATCHING A SPECTACLE.

WHATEVER THEIR MOTIVE IS, AND WHAT THEY ARE GOING TO DO IS GOING TO AFFECT PEOPLE AND POSSIBLY GOING TO COST LIVES SO A LOT OF PEOPLE HAVE BEEN LISTENING TO THAT.

I THINK WHAT COMES TO THE FOREFRONT FOR ME, FROM THAT IS THIS QUESTION OF LIKE, OKAY.

CAN WE COMPROMISE WITH PEOPLE WHO ARE ON A DIFFERENT SIDE THAN US?

AND MAYBE.

BUT HOW FAR ARE WE WILLING TO MOVE?

AND I THINK THAT THE QUESTION IS WHO IS BEARING THE BRUNT OF THIS?

I DON'T THINK TYLENOL DOESN'T CAUSE AUTISM.

THE SCIENCE DOESN'T BEAR THAT OUT.

BUT I SUPPORT PRESIDENT TRUMP BECAUSE AT LEAST, YOU KNOW, AUTISM IS BACK IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

I HAVE SPENT A LOT OF TIME THINKING LIKE, CAN I SORT OF JUMP ON THAT PART OF IT?

AT THE VERY BACK OF THE WAGON?

AND I DON'T THINK I CAN.

I DON'T THINK THAT IT IS HELPFUL.

>> I JUST WANT TO BE CLEAR FOR PEOPLE WHO JUST JOINED OUR CONVERSATION.

THERE IS NO CAUSAL LINK THAT HAS BEEN DEMONSTRATED BETWEEN TYLENOL AND AUTISM.

THAT IS CLEAR.

STUDIES SUGGESTED SOMETHING COULD BE CONSIDERED BUT THERE IS NO CAUSAL LINK.

I WANT TO BE VERY CLEAR THAT THE CURRENTLY ACCEPTED MEDICAL ADVICE IS THAT HIGH FEVERS IN PREGNANT WOMEN ARE KNOWN TO BE DANGEROUS.

ONE OF THE THINGS YOU TALK ABOUT IN THE BOOK IS HOW WOMEN ARE PROGRAMMED AND MOTHERS IN PARTICULAR ARE KIND OF PROGRAMMED TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR EVERYTHING THAT HAPPENS OR DOESN'T HAPPEN TO THE FETUS AND LATER TO THE CHILD.

>> AND THE MOTHER BLAME, THIS IDEA THAT AUTISM WAS CAUSED BY REFRIGERATOR MOTHERS.

THAT WAS POPULAR BACK IN THE DAY.

THERE IS THE WORK OF LIKE YES.

SHIFTING IT TO MOTHERS.

TELLING THEM TO TOUGH IT OUT.

YOU KNOW.

WE ALREADY KNOW ABOUT BLACK MATERNAL HEALTH AND MORTALITY.

THAT IS A WHOLE AREA OF HOW WILL THIS ADVICE AFFECT THOSE NUMBERS AND TO ME THAT'S LIKE, THAT IS TERRIFYING.

AND THERE IS SOMETHING ABOUT THIS EFFORT FROM THE ADMINISTRATION THAT FEELS LIKE THAT.

BOTH OF RACISM BUT ALSO ABLEISM.

THEY ARE TELLING US IT COULD BE VACCINES AGAIN.

AND WE SHOW THEM HOW MANY YEARS AGO IT WASN'T VACCINES.

AND SO, PART OF IT IS THE DISTRACTION.

LIKE WHY SEIZE ON AUTISM?

I CAN SORT OF GUESS.

RIGHT?

THERE IS SO MUCH CHAOS.

THERE IS SO MUCH DISTRACTION.

THAT IT IS HARD TO KNOW.

IT JUST FEELS LIKE ON AND ON AND ON.

>> THE CDC REPORTED IN 2023 FOR THE FIRST TIME BLACK, LATINO, ASIAN AND AMERICAN CHILDREN ARE BEING DIAGNOSED WITH AUTISM AT HIGHER RATES AND RESEARCH SUGGEST IT COULD IMPROVE SCREENING AND IMPROVED AWARENESS IN HISTORICALLY UNDERSERVED COMMUNITIES.

DO YOU HAVE A THEORY ABOUT THAT?

>> I WILL NEVER SAY THAT I AM THE ONE TO ASK BUT I CAN TELL YOU HOW DIFFICULT IT HAS BEEN TO GET DIAGNOSES FOR MY KIDS AND MYSELF.

I AM DIAGNOSED WITH AN ANXIETY DISORDER BUT ALSO, AUTISTIC AND ADHD WHICH IS NOW A TERM SOME OF US SAY, SOME TERRIBLE THINGS ONLINE ABOUT AUTISM BEING A TREND.

YOUPART OF WHAT IS SO IMPORTANT FOR ME ABOUT MY KIDS KNOWING AND I'M GUESSING YOU KNOW, OTHER PEOPLE OF COLOR KNOWING IS THAT IF YOU ARE A HIGH MASKING AUTISTIC, THE RATE OF SUICIDE AND SUICIDE IDEATION IS LIKE EXPONENTIALLY HIGHER THAN THE GENERAL POPULATION AND I HAVE SOME IDEAS AS TO WHY.

FOR PEOPLE LABELS DON'T MATTER.

THIS IS ONE OF THE REASONS WHY FOR MY FAMILY I THINK IT MATTERS TO BE ABLE TO HAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING OF ME BEING, WHY YOUR BRAIN WORKS THE WAY IT DOES OR WHY, QUOTE UNQUOTE, SIMPLE THINGS THAT OTHER PEOPLE SEEM TO DO SO EASILY ARE HARD FOR YOU.

>> TAYLOR HARRIS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU, MICHELLE.

>> THAT IS IT FOR US FOR NOW.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING.

AND GOOD-BYE FROM NEW YORK.